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[GREEN2172]

@NoFear:
“Inspiring presence” give barbs a HUGE advatage against dh with new natalya, you can only sprint/jump->rend->run ALLL the time, and every barb in top30 is using it, and DH with new natalya have 4-5 SS + 4-5 SS from preparation and after that we are defenseless and cannot kill you because you can hit&run and regenerate HP.
Legacy natalya makes DH vs Barb equal, but legacy nat is possible to buy only for ppl who bought it a long time ago, so it's no fair that new players cannot buy it. If we ban “Inspiring presence” we can ban old natalya to make all fights equal, but this is decision of judges.

And don't say that we have 300k dps. We have 300k dps on 1 shot with Sharpshooter, after that our DPS comes to 140-170k.

[Lilith]

NoFear

Why u think that u should take down high geared dh with medium geared barb? So what can say high geared dh thats lose all the time with high imba barb? Please think about it.

@Green

Go to Ah, there are many legacy nats.

[Spirals]

I'd like to point out that we work with the following slogan:

"We base these rules on the best versus best situation"

If you are undergeared you have something to work on: if you are underskilled, you have something to work on.. but reversing it and making mediocre rules will not suffice for high quality duels.

[predsr]

Played some test games vs vimer(barb) using nats legacy old set, i dint even win a round, ive no idea how high end vimers gear is.  however i did feel like he outplayed me and was much more clever in the tactics he used

[Euronymous]

You know that I really appreciate the effort you guys are putting into making a good place for pvp in D3. But those rules are really disappointing.
I think you got the problem with WD totally wrong. WD is the new Wiz with these rules, better offensively but even worse defensively and in mobility. I'm not sure how much WDs had a saying in those rules (Keen was mentioned but looked suprised about some rules in his post too), but the restrictions are just too much.
WD is a very fragile class. It's just tough to realize it because right now you could combine all the few defensive/mobility skills a WD has in one build. Taking away spirit vessel or spirit walk in all fights alone will break the class, it just doesn't work without them. Taking away even more (hex/horrify, no shield, pets in some cases) will make them the laughing stock of d3cl.
It's not the defense that was the sole problem with WD - I'm pretty sure any class could easily take a WD out. It was the combination of a powerful offense with a wide variety of defensive and utility spells. Taking away only the latter will result in extremely dull and short fights.

Lets look at some match-ups:
vs. Monks
old rules: tough match-up because WD lacks the mobility to get away from monks and also the defense to not get 1-shot (2-shot with spirit vessel) by wave of light. It was a kill or get killed kind of duel.
new rules: no shield, no spirit walk or no spirit vessel. Monks stay the same. Duels were short and boring before, now they will last about 4s - the duration of serenity. 5-0 for monks.
Possible solution for the monk vs. wd match-up: ban wave of light and then balance the duel around a monk without wave of light. WDs will have to get some limits offensively too.

vs. DH
old rules: slightly in favor of WD or even match-up if the DH was playing with legacy nats and very good movement (check Mystical from the US). Why did the WD win? Mostly because of his dots (haunt and plague bats) while trying to stay alive with the combined use of spirit walk, vessel, horrify armor buff, pets and maybe even shield.
new rules: you take away more than 50% of the defensive skills and the possibility of a shield. DH stay the same. It will be ridiculously easy for a good DH to take down a WD with those changes.
possible solution: limit the WD to one dot (haunt or plague bats) and one of hex/horrify and one of pets/shield/jungle fortitude.

Okay I keep it at that for now. I don't see how those rules would be more fun or fair for most match-ups. Hopefully some experienced non-WD players can second how one-sided most fights vs. WD will be.
I think you have to make the restrictions to skills more balanced. Right now you take away mostly defensive skills. This will result in a lot of boring fights, worse than the early pvp days on PTR when everyone was dueling in pve gear, 1-shotting each other.

[GREEN2172]

@Euro: your wall of text can be shorted to "they want to nerf my OP class!!!11oneone, don't do it!"
DH must aim with skills, you not
DH dota have 2s duration and take 220%dmg IF DH hit you with it, your autoaim dota take 500%+ in 5 seconds (you can run after dota and DH must spend 1/2 of his dyscypline to survive)
DH have only 1 def skill: SS, and with normal set we can use it 6-8 times (that give us ~8-10seconds of fight) and after that we have 45 s cd. And you? We cannot hit you (pets) - you spam haunt. If we hit you we cannot kill you - 2x near death skills and all time spamming haunt. And your near death skills? 1 have 13s cd and second 60s.
DH have 1 pet who die from autoaim in 2s, you have 5 fuckin pets and always hide behind them.
etc...

You still think that your class will be punished by banning pets? Lend DH account from any of your friends and play against keen, and after that you can come here and say that your class will be worst then wizzard now.

[kaio]

You know that I really appreciate the effort you guys are putting into making a good place for pvp in D3. But those rules are really disappointing.
I think you got the problem with WD totally wrong. WD is the new Wiz with these rules, better offensively but even worse defensively and in mobility. I'm not sure how much WDs had a saying in those rules (Keen was mentioned but looked suprised about some rules in his post too), but the restrictions are just too much.
WD is a very fragile class. It's just tough to realize it because right now you could combine all the few defensive/mobility skills a WD has in one build. Taking away spirit vessel or spirit walk in all fights alone will break the class, it just doesn't work without them. Taking away even more (hex/horrify, no shield, pets in some cases) will make them the laughing stock of d3cl.
It's not the defense that was the sole problem with WD - I'm pretty sure any class could easily take a WD out. It was the combination of a powerful offense with a wide variety of defensive and utility spells. Taking away only the latter will result in extremely dull and short fights.

Lets look at some match-ups:
vs. Monks
old rules: tough match-up because WD lacks the mobility to get away from monks and also the defense to not get 1-shot (2-shot with spirit vessel) by wave of light. It was a kill or get killed kind of duel.
new rules: no shield, no spirit walk or no spirit vessel. Monks stay the same. Duels were short and boring before, now they will last about 4s - the duration of serenity. 5-0 for monks.
Possible solution for the monk vs. wd match-up: ban wave of light and then balance the duel around a monk without wave of light. WDs will have to get some limits offensively too.

vs. DH
old rules: slightly in favor of WD or even match-up if the DH was playing with legacy nats and very good movement (check Mystical from the US). Why did the WD win? Mostly because of his dots (haunt and plague bats) while trying to stay alive with the combined use of spirit walk, vessel, horrify armor buff, pets and maybe even shield.
new rules: you take away more than 50% of the defensive skills and the possibility of a shield. DH stay the same. It will be ridiculously easy for a good DH to take down a WD with those changes.
possible solution: limit the WD to one dot (haunt or plague bats) and one of hex/horrify and one of pets/shield/jungle fortitude.

Okay I keep it at that for now. I don't see how those rules would be more fun or fair for most match-ups. Hopefully some experienced non-WD players can second how one-sided most fights vs. WD will be.
I think you have to make the restrictions to skills more balanced. Right now you take away mostly defensive skills. This will result in a lot of boring fights, worse than the early pvp days on PTR when everyone was dueling in pve gear, 1-shotting each other.

I didn't worked on the WD vs Monk and Dh but I'll speak about what we are tring to do:

Some fights are not a metter of boring or not boring sometimes are just impossible to play for sm1.
Not for gear or skills just for "no ballance by blizz".

We try samthing almost impossible for us that we aren't blizz, and ofc we can do better and ofc this topic is open for u to give us feedback and work on them BUT:

Find a similar geared dh/monk try some duels with those rules and try different setup to avoid bans.
Come back and tell us how it goes.

Sometimes facing new rules make u finding new builds/items that u dind thought to use...

[Lilith]

Sometimes facing new rules make u finding new builds/items that u dind thought to use...

+1

Now im thinking about skills that can replace battle scars and boar in dh vs wiz

[Euronymous]

@Green
I don't think you remotely understood or even read my post. You also seem to have a lack of knowledge about other classes as your posts are always dripping with misinformation (just from your last post: spirit walk cd is 15s, spirit vessel is 90s and reduces spirit walk and horrify cds by 2s). Therefore I don't think arguing with you will bring up anything useful.

@kaio
I gave feedback in the other thread and was one of the few posters pushing for their own class to get nerfed. You have to understand that spirit walk and spirit vessel are the core of a witch doctor and removing one or the other will break the class. It's like removing smokescreen from DHs and tell them to find alternatives and tell them to explore their char better. WD is useless without them and sadly there are no alternatives for these skills.
A lot of people seem to underestimate the fact that WD was more "out-of-the-box" ready for pvp than probably any other class due to the overwhelming arsenal of powerful skills and the fact that balanced WD pve gear is not that different from what they use in pvp. But now that other classes have geared up and figured out how WDs work that gap became a lot smaller.
Ask players with high-end gear and lots of experience in D3 pvp, and I think that's what you want to base your rules on, most of them will tell you that WD vs. DH/Monk/Barb are relatively in balance right now. Some will even claim Barb/DH/Monk > WD at a really high-end level. In my opinion, one or two limitations per match-up like banning Hex, limiting the amount of auto-aiming attacks will be more than enough to even it out.

I played countless hours of D3 pvp, especially vs. DH and Barbs and tested pretty much any skill in hundreds of different builds. Again, there are no alternatives to the spirit walk/spirit vessel combo and WD are bottom-feeders without it, especially when you ban most of the other defensive skills too. Can't state more than my opinion on it, I guess we will have to wait for the ladder next season.

[VimeR]

good rules, good work

[Lilith]

@Euro

We will see in practice how it works. If wd's ass will get kicked to hard we back to  spirit walk and vessel combo in 3rd sezon.

[Euronymous]

Sure, that's bound to happen if the rules stay this way. But since the rules are not in place yet, I might as well try to argue and prevent that from happening, right? Spirals specifically asked for feedback on WD because they are not sure yet. That's why I'm pointing out that they are going the wrong direction with Spirit Walk/Vessel bans. Other classes often whine about Haunt and banning Haunt in some cases will not break the WD class. That would be a much smarter restriction and WDs are actually able to work around that with other skills.

The wording of the rules vs. Wizard seems to be redundant or wrong btw.
-   The Witch Doctor can use either “Spirit Walk” or “Spirit Vessel” but not both.
-   In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill “Spirit Walk” is not allowed.
-   In duels versus the “Wizard” the Witch Doctor is not allowed to use “Spirit Walk”, “Summon Zombie Dogs” or “Gargantuan”.

While were at it. Have you faced a WD that could beat you without spirit walk, pets, shield and hex/horrify, kaio?

[Lilith]

@Euro

Kaio is glass canon so u can kill him by any random skill^^

[error]

I've been playing with Euronymous and other WD since the PTR and I can assure you that, for a DH, dueling against a  WD w/o minions the fight is sightly in favor to the DH. If WD's no Spirit Vessel and other deffensive habilities I doubt duels will require many skill for DH to kill them.

Please try to arrange some balancing pvp trials to figure out those changes. I'm up for it if you need a Legacy/Non Legacy DH to try stuff.

[Forti]

wd got problems now. for me, monk, it's looking pretty nice.