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Author Topic: Ruleversion 1.2.5  (Read 124851 times)

Mr.Mag

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Re: Ruleversion 1.2.5
« Reply #135 on: March 18, 2013, 16:12:13 pm »

i'm not sure if i understood your post correctly, but in the new season each player has to ask an opponent for a duel every day. only intrusive inquiries will be granted walkover if duel did not take place. also after some number of losts by w/o, a player is removed from the league. personally i dont like w/o. its not the right way to become number one ;)
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Iria

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Re: Ruleversion 1.2.5
« Reply #136 on: March 18, 2013, 17:59:02 pm »

I think that is to cover the abuse currently of challenges just being cancelled. I challenged several opponents before, and they will come up with some excuse to just say they are collecting equipment or something to stall a few days. After a few days, the challenge just disappears and I can't re-challenge.

Also, what rules will be in place if two players cannot agree on each others equipment before saying "okay"? An example of this would be a stunning build against a Barbarian, the Barbarian will see the build and set Juggernaut passive, the other player will see the Juggernaut passive and change to non-stunning skills. Then the Barbarian will see the non-stunning skills and switch to a non-Juggernaut passive, and then the other player sees that change and sets the stunning skills again, and around and around we go!

Returning to DH specific rule discussion (I posted some similar opinions earlier but I will condense them here):

Against Barbarians, I don't feel the War Cry ban fully justified but I do agree that playing hit and run to reset is annoying (for both the Barbarian and the DH). The Barbarian wins that scenario since they regenerate life and cooldowns faster than a DH regenerates life and discipline in general (non-legacy). Perhaps there can be other limitations to EHP aside from War Cry, because as noted by others, Barbarians will simply use Overpower - Crushing Advance instead now to a similar effect.

Against Monks, I feel the Chemical Burn disables the DH offensive power by too much. My experience against good Monks is with Chemical Burn I win 80% of the time, without Chemical Burn I win 30% of the time; which is a huge difference. The reason is that the duels last considerably longer and I must not get hit for a longer period of time. Monks do such incredible damage with their Spirit spending skills now that, on critical hits, they can 1-shot almost any DH. DH also have no second chance ability, so 1-shot and it's over. Whereas Monks take 3-4 high powered critical hits to take down if they have the EHP (due to Serenity, Near Death Experience, and possibly potions if they stack bonus to heath globes and potions). Also, in general, Monks have higher dodge chance than DH and with our discipline limitations (non-legacy), we cannot win that war of attrition (especially if most hits are simply missing the Monk). I propose either a different change to DH such as Sharpshooter ban, or an additional restriction of Near Death Experience banned with Chemical Burn banned.

Against WD, I feel this match up is slightly in favor of the WD (non-legacy DH), but is not so much that they need to lose both Summon Zombie Dogs AND either Spirit Vessel or Spirit Walk. I propose just Spirit Vessel or Spirit Walk be banned (at the choice of the WD), and leave the Zombie Dogs as is.

Against Wizard, I do admit there needs to be some adjustment for the Wizard's benefit. I propose either Battle Scars or Companion be banned but not both. Banning both adds too much of a benefit to the Wizard since they also have Unstable Anomaly which grants them a second chance. Without a form of mitigating Storm Armor between Smokescreens, this duel will be to heavily in favor of high DPS Wizards (Ray of Frost for example tears through my 1.5M EHP DH in less than a second)!

Against DH, nothing needs to be changed as both players can copy each others skills! Future rules can be made for legacy vs non-legacy however as this still is an open discussion. Again, my opinion on the fact is: if I (non-legacy DH) can 1-shot a legacy DH I will win since they can unlikely 1-shot me; however, if both players cannot 1-shot each other, I will likely lose due to the meta game being simply Smokescreen, Vault, and Impale and no other build stands a chance at higher equipment levels.
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GREEN2172

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Re: Ruleversion 1.2.5
« Reply #137 on: March 18, 2013, 18:08:15 pm »

One most important question:

Will you ban legacy set or no? I want to buy today or tommorow end-game legacy set and if I spend 2-3b and you will ban it after that it will be fuckin unfair. So please make decision: ban or no.
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RoGH

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Re: Ruleversion 1.2.5
« Reply #138 on: March 18, 2013, 18:09:44 pm »

We have no intentions to do so.
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GREEN2172

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Re: Ruleversion 1.2.5
« Reply #139 on: March 18, 2013, 18:16:41 pm »

We have no intentions to do so.

Ty for answer.
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Wittster

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Re: Ruleversion 1.2.5
« Reply #140 on: March 18, 2013, 19:24:30 pm »

Against Monks, I feel the Chemical Burn disables the DH offensive power by too much. My experience against good Monks is with Chemical Burn I win 80% of the time, without Chemical Burn I win 30% of the time; which is a huge difference. The reason is that the duels last considerably longer and I must not get hit for a longer period of time. Monks do such incredible damage with their Spirit spending skills now that, on critical hits, they can 1-shot almost any DH. DH also have no second chance ability, so 1-shot and it's over. Whereas Monks take 3-4 high powered critical hits to take down if they have the EHP (due to Serenity, Near Death Experience, and possibly potions if they stack bonus to heath globes and potions). Also, in general, Monks have higher dodge chance than DH and with our discipline limitations (non-legacy), we cannot win that war of attrition (especially if most hits are simply missing the Monk). I propose either a different change to DH such as Sharpshooter ban, or an additional restriction of Near Death Experience banned with Chemical Burn banned.

I think you're being very loose with using those percentages there. My impression is that after the chemical burn u will still beat all non_rice monks 80% of the time, while maybe losing to him specifically 30-70 because he might have simply outplayed you. You beat me around 30-1 even without chemical burn and I fail to see that my gear and playskill are so much worse that a 70% advantage for me turned into a 95% disadvantage. Even though you destroyed me, the duels atleast felt very fair and fun to me and the DH actually needs some skill to get a kill instead of just sniping and always staying out of range.
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Iria

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Re: Ruleversion 1.2.5
« Reply #141 on: March 18, 2013, 19:33:53 pm »

Maybe Rice has better favor to the RNG goddess lol? That is everything in those duels, dodge dodge goose.
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Iria

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Re: Ruleversion 1.2.5
« Reply #142 on: March 18, 2013, 20:30:31 pm »

Another option instead of the Near Death Experience ban for Chemical Burn ban would be Mystic Ally ban instead. If I already can't hit the Monk due to running around (hard to line-up Impales all the time), stacking dodge, going invincible with Serenity and reviving with Near Death Experience, do they really need another layer of protection? lol
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GREEN2172

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Re: Ruleversion 1.2.5
« Reply #143 on: March 18, 2013, 21:00:52 pm »

Just ended tests with barb on new rules. No matter legacy nat (77k HP 400+ress 370k DPS) or new nat (90k hp 500+ress 422k DPS) nothing changed after banning War Cry, because they just using Threatening Shout and effect is the same. Still this <puke> tactics: marathon->ignore pain->rend->run->waiting for hp and cd reset->ignore pain->etc...

For me its suspicious how big nerfs get WD and how nothing changed in barbs, when they both are OP against DH. Now I have balanced fights with WD, but no change with barbs.

Do something with barb nerfs because banning war cry didn't changed anything. If it still will be like now I will just hold 10 challenges all the time, because I don't want to be free frag/point for barbs, and they know good that they have advantage against DH, just look at the barb challenges in league.
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predsr

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Re: Ruleversion 1.2.5
« Reply #144 on: March 18, 2013, 22:07:15 pm »

@green, can you post me the tags of these barbs your testing vs? i want to do my own testing also
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ricebowl

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Re: Ruleversion 1.2.5
« Reply #145 on: March 18, 2013, 22:43:45 pm »

Iria, you can't make the rules for the entire league balanced around me vs. you.  You have to put it in perspective with regards to anyone that's not me, like wittster suggested.  If anything, me vs. you is an outlier matchup that shouldn't even be heavily considered when trying to make rules for the entire league at hand.  The point is that monks at *every* gear and skill level have been unfairly pummeled by chemical burn, and yet you can still beat wittster 30-1 without chemical burn.  Similarly, I know that with the banning of chemical burn, my chances of beating non-Iria/Mystical DH's will also be very, very high.

And to say that monks generally have more dodge than DH's... I'm sorry, that's bogus.  There's no evidence of this whatsoever.  You had 4% more dodge than me when we played several nights ago.  It doesn't matter how it "feels" - it only matters what the stats page displays.  The rest is up to the dice.
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KNHO

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Re: Ruleversion 1.2.5
« Reply #146 on: March 19, 2013, 00:39:04 am »

Just ended tests with barb on new rules. No matter legacy nat (77k HP 400+ress 370k DPS) or new nat (90k hp 500+ress 422k DPS) nothing changed after banning War Cry, because they just using Threatening Shout and effect is the same. Still this <puke> tactics: marathon->ignore pain->rend->run->waiting for hp and cd reset->ignore pain->etc...

For me its suspicious how big nerfs get WD and how nothing changed in barbs, when they both are OP against DH. Now I have balanced fights with WD, but no change with barbs.

Do something with barb nerfs because banning war cry didn't changed anything. If it still will be like now I will just hold 10 challenges all the time, because I don't want to be free frag/point for barbs, and they know good that they have advantage against DH, just look at the barb challenges in league.

I duel a lot everyday vs Nofear. I do better everytime, and it seems for me not so hopless as it was in the beginning.
Without warcry, it seems to be much more balanced vs him. When i understand right, Executioner can´t play his crazy 200 k hp barb, with 2Handed weapon, without warcry anymore? If yes, this helps A LOT. With old rules, there´s just no chance to kill him, impossible. If some barbs would like to test new rules vs me, feel free to whisp me ingame.
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GREEN2172

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Re: Ruleversion 1.2.5
« Reply #147 on: March 19, 2013, 01:03:35 am »

@KNHO: did he used "Threatening Shout"? I played 1 rounjd only when barb didnt used war cry or Threatening Shout and it was very good - he was able to kill me and I was able to kill him. But with Threatening Shout situation is the same like before:
war cry: +20% armor +20% ress
Threatening Shout: -20% enemy DPS AND 30% slow or -15%as.
Someone can say: just avoid Threatening Shout - it's impossible, it's very hard to avoid 17m rend and this shout have 25m range.
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devilek666

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Re: Ruleversion 1.2.5
« Reply #148 on: March 19, 2013, 01:06:22 am »


war cry: +20% armor +20% ress
Threatening Shout: -20% enemy DPS AND 30% slow or -15%as.


lol...Use Vault or the other invisibiity skill and slow down effect is gone 8)
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predsr

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Re: Ruleversion 1.2.5
« Reply #149 on: March 19, 2013, 01:07:29 am »

The slow and ias is irrelevant, it removes with Smokescreen and if im calculating right the -20% dps is not as huge as them losing 20/20 armour res
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