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[DaRkE]

if your going to ban haunt in wd vs monk you might as well ban haunt/rend from the league.

skills that are undodgeable don't make sense in the first place as the dexterity stat is essentially useless against it.

I like to stack dex as a barb. should you ban haunt vs barbs too then?

Valid reasoning, I don't completely understand what you are pointing out to be honest.

Maybe you have some calculations and videos to better explain your point in the discussion?

[chucknorris#1885]

hey I think the class balance are a lot better here than in 1.2.5

Two suggestions for the wd rules;

- all haunt runes should be banned vs wiz. I think banning all pets not needed but its possible for wd to go glass cannon and just snipe wiz with 2s sec haunt while staying out of range of storm armor.

- haunt can not be banned vs monk. wd vs monk is already in monk favor. wd has 0% chance to defeat a good monk without haunt. any monks having trouble vs wd is simply because they use wrong build/gear and have bad micro. Im not writing this to show off and I know a lot of monks dont want to accept this but it is the simple truth. Please contact player viri#1357 monk on america server to learn some monk vs wd skills.

I would like to suggest that any league rules be made optional on a player agreed upon match basis. Having played most of the top pvpers on the america server I know many would not see the need or the desire to have any rules designed to compensate for lack of skill. both players would need to agree to waive the rules at the start or they apply. this way the handicap applies where it is needed and does not interfere in a match where it is not. 

Also what is the reasoning behind removing gear swap in a fight? I feel this is a bad direction to go as it slows the match down and removes a lot of skill/strategy and apm available to top level players. I think only place where gear swap needs to be looked at is full tank gear swap for running during cooldown.

[MysticaL]

edit: I can look mystical vs vimer, or iownyou. If he will win with this guys we no need rules;p

I don't have them on my friends list yet, but I'll duel them all eventually. If they have better gear than Devil, it'll be really hard, but nothing's impossible!? 

my current gear/skills for DH vs. Barb (total cost: ~800m)
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/profile/MysticaL-1298/hero/18372071

vs. Devil with no Warcry
youtube.com/watch?v=ZOZc4NJXK14

I also recorded a BO9 duel vs GREEN, I'll upload this one later

[Blud]

OK I urge any monks out there to come and test with me without Haunt. From my experience, I haven't met any monk who got me in trouble using haunt.

I am tired of all the Americans coming here saying that WDs are at a disadvantage in all matchups and that all the players are therefore a bunch of noobs who do not know how to duel them. How the fuck can a monk survive Haunt with 300k dps + 35% elite + 12% haunt dmg...? You basically just haunt him, crit or no crit he will have to pop serenity. WD spirit walks away. Serenity is over, haunt again. At this point u can just stand still and let the monk trigger your passive while he melts down.

Mystical, I look forward to having some more duels when you get better gear. But man, don't upload only the videos in which you win vs Barbs or Dhs! xD

[chucknorris#1885]

blud go find player viri. you will understand how good a skilled monk can be vs wd. once monk learns good micro and how to use their cd's its simply in their favor with ds + bell 1 shoting any tank set up.  even wd camping on island can be defeated by monk once micro is mastered.

[Blud]

hey I think the class balance are a lot better here than in 1.2.5

Two suggestions for the wd rules;

- all haunt runes should be banned vs wiz. I think banning all pets not needed but its possible for wd to go glass cannon and just snipe wiz with 2s sec haunt while staying out of range of storm armor.

- haunt can not be banned vs monk. wd vs monk is already in monk favor. wd has 0% chance to defeat a good monk without haunt. any monks having trouble vs wd is simply because they use wrong build/gear and have bad micro. Im not writing this to show off and I know a lot of monks dont want to accept this but it is the simple truth. Please contact player viri#1357 monk on america server to learn some monk vs wd skills.

I would like to suggest that any league rules be made optional on a player agreed upon match basis. Having played most of the top pvpers on the america server I know many would not see the need or the desire to have any rules designed to compensate for lack of skill. both players would need to agree to waive the rules at the start or they apply. this way the handicap applies where it is needed and does not interfere in a match where it is not. 

Also what is the reasoning behind removing gear swap in a fight? I feel this is a bad direction to go as it slows the match down and removes a lot of skill/strategy and apm available to top level players. I think only place where gear swap needs to be looked at is full tank gear swap for running during cooldown.

OK, I hope this is not your pvp gear:

http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/chucknorris-1885/YAARRRRR/17680313

Second, here some videos with no haunt. Perhaps you can analyse them and see why a WD can't beat a monk without haunt. Or maybe you can say why the monk is so wrong in everything he does. (note that Sin was testing skills and pieces of gear (like his godly spear with shield vs skorn, aoe sss, etc.)

[ricebowl]

Also what is the reasoning behind removing gear swap in a fight? I feel this is a bad direction to go as it slows the match down and removes a lot of skill/strategy and apm available to top level players. I think only place where gear swap needs to be looked at is full tank gear swap for running during cooldown.

You do realize it's just easier to ban gear swapping altogether rather than arbitrarily determine what is a full tank gear swap and what isn't?

[Blud]

Well I'm afraid I cannot duel your friend, he's not on EU, and I'm done with all the e-peen US players are better thing.

That same logic you mention applies to the other side too. Any skillful WD will be able to manage his cooldowns and force monk to use his by means of haunt. If I use the environment properly he won't be able to 1shot me before he takes 1 haunt. And with the amount of dmg used in a haunt build, 1haunt = death if he doesn't pop serenity.

That said, I have always said that banning haunt will maybe favour Monks strongly, once they get used to playing no-haunt wds. And thats why we need tests, and test league, etc.

[Blud]

I'm sorry, I just don't understand how a WD is supposed to do damage to me without using haunt.  If anything, hex should be banned due to the extreme RNG nature of it.

You cannot balance a matchup based on one top player vs. another top player.  You have to balance it to the broadest amount of players.  I don't see myself losing to 99% of WD's if they can't use haunt.  How are they supposed to damage me? 

Please reconsider this rule.

just LOL. Nothing else to say.

[chucknorris#1885]

its easier to ban all gear swap than specific gear swap but imo its much better for the development of the pvp scene and the players to just allow all gear swap in that case. no gear swap just reduces skill cap.

Blud I have many pvp gear set including top 10 wd pvp dummy in the world, top top 20 world wd dps and top 10 world wd ehp on diabloprogress. I have found it a great advantage to have a variety of gear to adjust for each of my opponents.

Please before you dismiss this just have a chat with viri. I appologize if what I wrote was offensive to you or anyone it is not my intention to come across this way. Just want to make the point that if one monk can do it so can all the others learn. but if you introduce a rule like this then you are slowing the development of a lot of players who will rely on this handicap instead of learning the counters without it.

[ricebowl]

I'm sorry, I just don't understand how a WD is supposed to do damage to me without using haunt.  If anything, hex should be banned due to the extreme RNG nature of it.

You cannot balance a matchup based on one top player vs. another top player.  You have to balance it to the broadest amount of players.  I don't see myself losing to 99% of WD's if they can't use haunt.  How are they supposed to damage me? 

Please reconsider this rule.

just LOL. Nothing else to say.

Wtf kind of 14 year old response is this?

[ricebowl]

its easier to ban all gear swap than specific gear swap but imo its much better for the development of the pvp scene and the players to just allow all gear swap in that case. no gear swap just reduces skill cap.

What a flimsy argument.  Let's be honest here guys, with 6 buttons and a map that never changes, there's only so many tricks you can do.  Gear swapping is impossible to halfway regulate.  It needs to be fully allowed or completely banned.  It's easier on the admins/judges and players don't have to raise a million questions about where the line is drawn.

Blud I have many pvp gear set including top 10 wd pvp dummy in the world, top top 20 world wd dps and top 10 world wd ehp on diabloprogress. I have found it a great advantage to have a variety of gear to adjust for each of my opponents.

You're allowed to swap before each individual duel, just not during the duel.  Nobody is stopping you from switching to the gear you need.

Please before you dismiss this just have a chat with viri. I appologize if what I wrote was offensive to you or anyone it is not my intention to come across this way. Just want to make the point that if one monk can do it so can all the others learn. but if you introduce a rule like this then you are slowing the development of a lot of players who will rely on this handicap instead of learning the counters without it.

Get.  Off.  Your.  High.  Horse.

"xxx is a better player than all of you, l2p" is not a legitimate argument.

[DaRkE]

chuknorris

Please take a look a the current video's and the text description related to them:

http://forum.d3cl.com/index.php/topic,1449.msg37043.html#msg37043

I think you will find more efficient ways to play versus monk, haunt is definitively not required and it does not support fair chances to reach 5 points first for the monk.

They should be non existing.
To walk you trough the process
1 crit  haunt will kill the monk.
The monk has to charge the witch doctor
The witchdoctor will presumable spirit walk( wich last for 5 seconds ), and haunt is already applied to the monk.
The monk must use serenity,  last for 4 seconds.
He must then charge for the witch doctor again, and hit with 1 crit bell (2-3 )non crit bells to force the wd's sv.
Then the witch doctor has sv again and you must again follow him and crit the last bell.


Offcourse it is not valid to list a duel procedude like that, but it surrounds the duel mechanics in discussion.

I have played quite alot as witch doctor versus monk, and also as monk versus witch doctor.

I have open discussion with viri about monk since ptr.


I can assure you that the rules are not to favor or increase the chances above reasonable for any class!
They are to improve and euqlize the chances for each class , given the correct gameplay  a fair chance to reach 5 points, to support the player giving best perfomance to come out as champion.

I understand your caution when we decide to leave haunt and that it must be very frustrating for you to loose verus a monk with a gear-set that is of significant lesser quality than your own.

With dedication and practice I am positive you will find better ways to  conduct  this match.


I wish you the best of luck and thank you for taking part in the rules discussion.


MysticaL show a great example of how to leave constructive and valid feedback.

This is a proper way to confirm opinions and theories, and contribute to the quality of the duels in league.

I hope more people will follow his example, wich of video in particular is not needed but the information and structure of the post.

Thank you.

[chucknorris#1885]

thanks for the response Darke. I cannot find any relevant wd vs monk vids in that thread though. the only clips with a monk in them is a monk using a shield which is a big mistake for the monk vs wd from my experience. No matter how good the monk I can still beat 1hmonk even without haunt . but monk geared properly with two hand one shots even on no crit through tank gear. and ur play by play is not very accurate haha

any way thats my two cents on the rules. good luck with the league. hope you keep it simple n ill join when im back home and able to play again in two months.

ps. dont ban gear switch! the only full switch I ever had to do is to counter wotb runners and if wotb/hex is banned its already taken care of. gear switch ban = less action and more administrative boring shit in town.

[Blud]

Yes I agree with you Chuck, 1h Monk vs WD is a mistake. I didn't realise about that when I first posted this video because I have many. There's others in which Sin uses skorn or rare 2h.

I was so reticent to banning haunt as well, but after a lot of testing I kinda figured that it's still possible to win. Perhaps I haven't dueled many monks using the right gear & skills, I don't know. I'll keep dueling!

Banning Haunt might be too drastic, but not banning it, leaves monks without any chance.