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[KNHO]

Here i would recomend a overview of the rules for "Non BT Tank DH´s", because they aren´t ok in my eyes right now:

- DH vs Monk
I met a few very strong Monk´s the last weeks, even with "Chemical Burn" i had very hard times.
The thing is, that i got to play vs ">>>Good Monks<<<" 99% out of sight and snipe all over the map with HA and Impales, and hope that i hit. If i let them enter my screen, i die, or got very good luck and can escape.
The big dodge potential of Monks makes "Grievous wounds" just useless..
Don´t come up with Rapid fire now Everything that lets you stand on a place even for 2 seconds can kill you vs a good Monk. My suppose = Allow "Chemical Burn" again.

- DH vs Wizzard
Mokkal and Ximae can for sure say here that i am not the worst DH vs Wizzard player.
My setup vs Wizzard is "800" Lightn. Resis, 110 k HP, 25 k Globeheal.
I played yesterday vs Vegeta, and was very surprised how dangerous a good wizzard can be.
Even with the crazy defensive statts that i listened below, i was a "One shot" in let´s say 90% of all SA, Teleport hits.
After i was "Totaly" destroyed few times in a row, i took "Battle Scars" and the "Boar", and even with those, the matchup was slightly more balanced for me. Because in the most times like i mentioned before i even couldn´t use it, 1 SA, Teleport hit and im dead. <---Here is Brooding and the Turrets also useless
If there is a DH that says "It´s ok, i can bang all wizzards even with curent rules", i invite you to the game, play vs Vegeta.
My suppose = Allow Boar and Battle Scars again...

- DH vs Barb
Look on the statistics in the league right now, good Barbs are still beating up good DH´s.
Vimer = 100%
Nofear = 100%
DarkRaven = 100%
I don´t see the big "Overpower" of "Rapid fire" right now that you guys talk about.
My suppose = Let it as it is right now

- DH vs WD
This is the biggest Problem since the start of this league because just nothing has changed and they are still facesitting on us with their big butts.
My suppose to even start balancing this is = They need to choose Gargantua or Dogs, and "Spirit Walk or Spirit Vessel". WD´s got a very high survive and tank potential, so 1 of those things needs to be banned vs DH for sure

[Forti]

Do you know that vimer and nofear are overgeared than any dh in league? Also dh's in league are not so pro's. I lose with one old-nat (very good gear, legacy nat cost around 10b I think) 3-5. So in my opinion it is not about unbalanced dh vs. barb

about dh vs. monk. Yes, unbban chemical burn! let's have lose every single fight vs. dh again! yuupi yayaey : D

[KNHO]

Do you know that vimer and nofear are overgeared than any dh in league? Also dh's in league are not so pro's. I lose with one old-nat (very good gear, legacy nat cost around 10b I think) 3-5. So in my opinion it is not about unbalanced dh vs. barb

about dh vs. monk. Yes, unbban chemical burn! let's have lose every single fight vs. dh again! yuupi yayaey : D

Nofear ist overgeared? Don´t let him read this  He is a top player, thats the fact.
I spoke about good monks, can you consider yourself as top geared and skilled?
You call all DH´s in the curent league noobs? Bad? How should we take "Not so pro´s"?
You loose still every single fight vs DH, even without chemical burn. So whats your point?

[DarkRaven]

the main problem is that there aren't any top level non-legacy dhs in D3cl at this moment.

there are 4-5 barbs here closer to the max potential of their class more than any non-legacy dh.

predsr is a very good legacy but rapid fire doesn't advantage them.

I have played against venxosiz in D3cl and vz uzjel after a public. I don't want to offend them but it wasn't even close compared to dhs like error.

I played vs error in a public game, 115k hp in Bt set and still amazing damage with rf. I couldn't kill him/her? in wotb with spear, I got him maybe 1/3 times with skorn but I needed like 2 crits in those 15 sec because of prep and smoke screen, plus I couldn't just stand in rf 15 sec.

the dps potential of rf makes it so overpowered because it allows them to be A LOT more tanky while still being able to kill. Maybe dhs here gear wrongly towards more dps. vs Ven I killed him with spear and shield without wotb, vs error I couldn't kill with skorn in wotb, while he still had more than enough to kill me.

the same as wd bats, top wds can easily go with high ehp because they think they can still burst a barb down. which actually is stupid cause barbs will only engage in wotb with IP and wds can't ever kill a running barb without both haunt and SB.

I agree that error is probably better geared as dh than I am as barb and didn't test a lot of specs, I'm curious what vimers experience is vs top dhs.

As a sidenote, scorpion joined the public game where I was with error and he really messed up the dh with bats. A top wd with bats seemed to have more dps potential than a skorn wotb barb, and that is pretty funny

[Forti]

@ KNHO

Im not topgeared or top skilled monk. That's a fact. Dont say anythink like "you loose most of you fights against dh so you noob".

Vimer and nofear are much better geared than any dh here (in my opinion). but it depends what you mean better geared as barb then you as dh. Also vimer and nofear are much more skilled than any dh's here - that's a next fact.

[KNHO]

Darky thats the reason why i wrote this:

"Here i would recomend a overview of the rules for "Non BT Tank DH´s", because they aren´t ok in my eyes right now".

@ Forti, as you can´t tell anything constructive in this topic, i would appreciate if you just keep outside of this. I didn´t notice anything usefull for the pvp community in your 365 comments. Thank you.

[DarkRaven]

I look now at Venxosiz gear in dprogress, 213k dps SoJ with 1mil ehp 89k hp.

I think error had 210k SoJ with 115k hp in full Bt set. He doesn't have that gear currently equipped but it felt harder to kill than many Barbs.

dunno if he had double the ehp Ven currently has but I bet it was pretty close. He didn't even run when I had wotb, if he ran it would have been less than 30% win for me.

@knho, I agree there should be different rules for dhs not using rapid fire, especially legacy dhs, as I wrote earlier

Barb vs Demon Hunter
- If the Demon Hunter is using the skill Rapid Fire, all other skills are allowed
- If the Demon Hunter is not using the skill Rapid Fire, Barbarian is allowed to use the skill WarCry only with "no rune" and the skill Relentless is banned

[KNHO]

Darky, i don´t understand you

You wrote "predsr is a very good legacy but rapid fire doesn't advantage them".

So why allow everything for Barb, when he uses it? It doesn´t advantage him..?
I would change it into anything like "If a DH uses the BT set in combination with Rapid fire, then there are no restrictions for Barbs" Because the DH is able to Tank like a Boss, and still has a shitload of DPS. But even here, you just can stalemate this match, BT Dh´s don´t have a mobility to set the final blow on you if you play passive after some hits.

[DarkRaven]

I didn't want the rules to be complicated.

I know that basically a legacy dh will have lower ehp and lower dps. their advantage is mobility given by disc.

I didn't test enough vs a legacy using rf, I presume that it should be a lot easier to rend them compared to impale only dhs.

its not about Bt set, a non legacy dh can reach similar ehp values even without Bt, just like barbs can. the difference is that Bt ehp is based more on mitigation ( rather than hp ) and they have a bit more life reg.

to still keep it simple, maybe impose restrictions vs legacy dhs and allow all skills vs non legacy ( if they use rf ) ?, but I can't really comment on that because I haven't played vs RF legacy DHs too much.

Personally I felt the matchup was pretty fun without rf, while nerfing slightly the ehp of barbs. I think dhs should be encouraged more to return to that style rather than staying still and shooting rf until somebody dies, that's why I wanted to nerf even more barbs ehp vs non rf dhs.

maybe, vs non rf, ban all runes on wc, relentless and nerves, forcing barbs to use unforgiving not a full tank spec and maybe tough as nails which is strictly worse than nerves.

[DarkRaven]

and don't forget that mystical " top skill " legacy dh considered the matchup was perfectly fine with no restrictions even before 1.08.

[Forti]

[...]

@ Forti, as you can´t tell anything constructive in this topic, i would appreciate if you just keep outside of this. I didn´t notice anything usefull for the pvp community in your 365 comments. Thank you.

Im unskilled doesnt' mean u are. I can say the same as you. you see, u challenged me, you can talking here but you cant play. that's all about.

We were talk about gear barb - dh. I just said there are no good geared dh in this league compared to barbs.

[KNHO]

Darky, we can test it today if you like. I am online from 22:00 cet.
I´ll show you that rending me isn´t eazy, because the whole gameplay around RF in combination with Impale, depends on "Thrill of the hunt" for me. A "standing still" only can afford a BT DH while sitting in healing turrets with brooding up.
With this you can´t kill a "clever, good Barb" who doesn´t try to kill you like a brain afk freak.
You forget the big vs elite dmg reduction by BT DH´s. <-- Thats the diffrence to New Nats DH´s.

"To still keep it simple, maybe impose restrictions vs legacy dhs and allow all skills vs non legacy" <---- That sounds worth to think about for me.

Let´s test today, and make conclusions after this.

[KNHO]

and don't forget that mystical " top skill " legacy dh considered the matchup was perfectly fine with no restrictions even before 1.08.

This is just not true Darky, i played a lot of times with MysticaL, and we talked a lot of times about this.
He just was trolling...Ask him self if you meet him again. He was stalemating for hours not able to kill a good barb, and the barb wasn´t able to kill him. It was fine when a barb joined the battlefield in a offensive gear setup. The most Barb´s didn´t do that.

[DarkRaven]

mystical was banned for the duping gold bug. but yeah, I felt he said that because basically legacy dhs can stalemate forever vs barbs.

I know that almost all dhs use rf with thrill and maybe other stuns too. so if you consider that using rf doesn't have disadvantages for legacy why not allow all skills for barb ?

I may be online around that time but I can't promise anything it depends on when my daughter goes to sleep and also today is my ( and my wife ) marriage 4th year anniversary

I'm usually online a bit in the morning before I go to work and a bit in the evening around 21-23 CET, I'll contact u when I see u online.

[KNHO]

Yes "Wifes" and "D3" are mortal enemys 

"so if you consider that using rf doesn't have disadvantages for legacy why not allow all skills for barb"
Because legacy Dh´s got dmg disatvantages, and we would give "Stalemating" a "go and have fun" signal.
Thats the only reason for me.