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[VimeR]

Euro you are funny talking about barb items, what is good etc 

in shoulders and bracers you have only free slot for potions bonus and is very good in relentess area if you know what is this 

[Euronymous]

Do you know how affixes work? Your shoulders are 111 str out of 300, bracers 0 str out of 200, weapon 47 crit out of 100, amulet 65 crit out of 100 and so on. You don't have to lose any stats for it (except for the useless arcane, psn and low dex rolls).
Usually for best in slot you would expect at least 85%+ perfect rolls (like your BT set, that I consider best in slot). If you had 85%+ rolls on the 4 stats I mentioned you would gain 30% pure damage (and more EHP because of armor).
Look at the top WDs and DHs (if they still have gear), you will not find many slots that can get huge upgrades like that.

I don't think you understood my post. It was a response to DarkRaven saying that budget barbs are better than other budget classes because they use non-pve items that are on low demand. And I agree with this, but it's the opposite if you look at maxed out chars. It's much easier to build a near perfect WD/DH. Barbs rely on rares and crafts, much harder to get best-in-slot on these.

[DarkRaven]

I am looking now at scorpion gear, dunno if he has best PvP gear or not but he is no1 PvP dummy score. I think he is missing just as many stats, if not more than vimer.

actually barbs have 8 "fixed" slots with legendary or set items, wds seems to have around 9, but the amount of % of perfection on vimers fixed slots seems better than what scorpion has.

in a lot of situations barbs have to also use lacunis.  Also vile wards like mine have ehp similar to top crafted ones, plus It's based on mitigation rather than pure hp and they have life regen. weapon and amulet are the biggest drawbacks in building a decent but not prohibitively expensive barb.

and what does budget have to do with crafted?
you say barbs should get better gear but already barb budget pieces have more % of perfection stats than other classes high budget ( not top ) pieces, for the reasons mentioned before.

[IMP-Executioner]

its not a problem of items!

problem @ wd is the dps scaling

all 250 k dps wd have same dps potential as 600 k dps dh and monk and thats the problem blizzard! has to solve

its not that funny that a 140 k life wd has the same survivability like 16 mio ehp tankbarb and still 180 k dps thats similar to  350-400k dps demon hunters

[VimeR]

Is 1 problem euro, this items dont exist what you have described 

[IMP-Executioner]

@euro i just read your item-post ....

it is just not correct that we have not good enough items! according to all optimized calculation we know whats the best 1 hand + shield and best 2 hand combination.

and it is not so far away from the wd items because also perf vile ward and perf lacuni fit those perfect setups the pvp problem of barb is that u cannot play with these setups because blizzard gave us no anti cc!

if we use the best items in the world we are not pvp competitive because we end up buffed with ~ 200 k dps and 8 mio ehp!
as we have no anti cc every barb dies in first cc phase because lack of anti cc what forces barbs to use stupid wotb or use gimp tank setup ending up @ 90 k dps and 16 mio ehp because thats the only way to go at the moment and the items u need for that are mostly rares that u can only craft and that are difficult to maximise

if blizzard gives us a viable anti cc or skills that scale with our dps for example not a lol 120% weapon dps on our best pvp skill whirlwind but maybe 300% u will cry if we use our best in slot items

for example look at airbusor he has nice dummy items and is just not competitive in his setup as he dies in 1 sheep or rapid fire series with his 8 mio ehp

[Euronymous]

Is 1 problem euro, this items dont exist what you have described 

Yes, but they can exist.
"So now it's a question of where to set the bar for "highest gear level". Is it the maximum possible rolls? The best items that exist? The best or most expensive char of a class? The best items a certain amount of gold can buy?
In my opinion it should be maximum possible rolls. This is the only thing you can count on, best existing items and chars will always change."

@DarkRaven
Blud and me used legendaries on all but one slot (gloves). There are some slots where rares can be an alternative, but that's similar to rare belt/pants/gloves being an alternative to what Barbs usually use. I don't know if there are WDs right now that are closer to perfection than Vimer, Scorpion is playing for pvp-dummy and at least half of his items on his profile are not best in slot and shouldn't be used vs. Barbs.
You have to look at the char as a whole and can't just do slot by slot comparisons. If you lose hundreds of stats on your weapon, amulet and shoulders (possibly bracers too if not lacunis) it has the same effect as using average legendaries instead of best-in-slot legendaries in multiple slots. What good is it if you gain 40 stats with the best on server 90/90 BT boots compared to common 70/70 BT boots if you lose out on 200 stats on one or more of your rares?
Rares make or break Barbs. Crafts have nothing to do with budget, but without crafts it would be even harder for Barbs to reach their max potential.

@IMP
You are just making up numbers in your first post.
WDs best skill has 230%+3*65%, how much do rapid fire and wave of light deal again?
How does a 140k life WD have the same survivability as a 16m ehp tank barb? WDs usually don't have more than 1.5m EHP vs. Barbs or 3m vs. other chars if they use tank gear.

If you use Vile Ward as a Barb you give up your advantage of 100 (130) stats compared to dex/int classes. Therefore Vile Ward can never be best in slot for Barbs. It is basically impossible to make up for that loss on other slots because like I said, at the top level you can only get 20 stats here and 20 stats there on legendaries.

"and the items u need for that are mostly rares that u can only craft and that are difficult to maximise" Crafts only have +30 stats on perfect rolls compared to rares. Without crafts it would be even harder than it is now to get good rares.
But this is exactly my point, Barbs are more difficult to maximize. I gave you guys an example of Vimers items, 4 changes for +30% DPS without an EHP loss if you get stats on the level of good legendaries (~85% rolls).

Most Barbs could gain 25%+ DPS from their spear alone if they would switch to one that is on the level of perfection of EFs and Manticores. That alone shows which class has the highest upside right now...

[IMP-Executioner]

you just dont get it ...

even if we had perfect items + 300 extra str + 300 extra vita there would still be no chance vs wd!

we can not even use perfect statz at all! because we are forced to use some -fury cost items, fury regen passives or extra life on healpots stat on items! together with faster run

how i come up with those numbers?
if i use my 18 mio ehp setup together with all def passives and mitigation skills together with relentless zone, 30 k healpots and liferegen i end up somewhere at 40 mio ehp

to kill those 40 mio ehp every pure dps sorc and dh needs longer than an 230 k dps wd and thats just not the right scaling in my eyes

same at ehp! 140 k life wd using his 2 lifes and permasheep and the new stupid liferegen can stand even longer vs dps dh than any tank barb!

[VimeR]

euro just dont understand ...

[Euronymous]

Are you seriously telling me that 300str, 300vit and tons of crit/dps can't make any difference? What's going on here? This game is almost purely based on gear if players of similar experience meet. How can this not be the difference between winning and losing?!

Your numbers are made up. A 40m EHP Barb (really, that much is possible?) will not die faster than a 140k life 2-3m EHP WD in a realistic setting (permasheep vs. DH isn't realistic).
A 500%+ or 900%+ weapon damage skill deals more damage than a 230%+3*65%. Ever died vs. WD in 1 or 2 shots like vs. some Monks or in a few seconds like in DH rapid fire meltdowns?

I always like discussion about rules, but it's getting silly. No point in discussing with you guys anymore. This is one of the more balanced match-ups in the game with WotB and you apparently just can't accept it if 2 or 3 WDs on the server are able to beat you.
Cheers, see you around in some future patch.

[IMP-Executioner]

wd was he best pvp char from the beginning...

and guess what? blizzard gave him 3 incredible nice buffs!

1. 25% more ehp
2. 2% lifereg
3. a skill that does i cant really say but about 3 mio dmg/s out of 200 k dps that u can use to kill someone that is sheeped 1 time and got no single anti cc spell

wotb using is so incredible stupid

good wd dont even use pets in this phase use no dps at all just ran around 1 corner according to the fury cost of wotb u have to use dumb setup anyway to have fury for 3 hits everytime u use sprint even 1 more hota hit is gone
if the wd using 140 k life setup u need 2 crits to kill him after wotb u are dead without weapon swich

guess what the win statistics in those matches look like ^^

and yes the difference is that vs every other class i am able to avoid minimum 50% of the incoming dps wd always gets his 100% and furthermore he is the only class we cannot use rend the only pvp viable attack because the wd is just immune to this even monk and dh get at least 50% of the dmg if they use their anti

barb has no anti cc at all only got some nice running abilities that work together with liferegen and the problem vs wd is the dps in a row ... i can not even use my overpower shield nor my 2 mio ehp giving healthpot while sheeped

[Forti]

And this is why i wont play against them. Its wasting my time. You cant win with these rules. I think also some players wont play because of wd. Some players change them to wd, join this league and 'im skilled'. 

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[Forti]

I want to say also, it is not because rules. It is because blizzard.

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[DarkRaven]

do some test games with vimer vs a top wd using ef, like euro did... with hex banned, maybe even bats allowed, I'm sure wds have a lot of cc available to make it work.

[Forti]

So. We need figur out why players dont join this league. What do you thinkig about? It is because of rulez? Because of blizard? Do you think there could be more players after tvt? Even awards didnt bring them as i c. Meyby the challeng system? Meyby we need change some stuff with this. but how. Just saying.. Im under 1200 rating, every players who can play with me are always offline :p i think we got 10-20 active players at this moment. I know there could be many players. I really dont know why ppl are affraid.. There are maby many players in public brawling.. Meyby wrong theard. Then sorry.



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