Diablo 3 Clan League - PvP forum
Duelling & Diablo 3 => Rules & development => Topic started by: ricebowl on April 22, 2013, 02:02:52 am
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Since there is little chance of the inspiring presence buff for 1.08 being canceled, I figured it's probably a good idea to make a separate thread for it so it doesn't clutter up the main rules thread. Whining about Blizzard not caring about PvP doesn't help anyone.
My current suggestion is to only allow inspiring presence or ignore pain but not both equipped at same time.
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Top WD and monks rely on burst vs b and they will still be able to kill barbs.
top WD like euronymous and blud destroy top barbs easily even with the no hex no wotb rule, 4% life reg will actually balance that a bit. Especially with the new bats which can kill in one stun sometimes.
Monk vs barb is a lot of times full burst then wait 30 for cd and try again, any barb already has 1200-1500 regen on gear plus 2% it means they are already at full in 30 sec. U can also check mafia vs manner on ptr, he still killed manner a lot. There may be builds that take advantage better of the life reg but top players have to test if an ehp skill ban is necessary. But overall it looks pretty balanced at the very top.
Barb vs barb will probably rely more on stun and burst hota rather than rend.
Wiz and dh lack the burst damage but banning some ehp skillz in d3cl should be enough. The problem with warcry ban is that it nerfs fury management too much and barbs have no chance to catch a legacy dh.
But banning all defensive passives and all runes on warcry except the fury gain may do the trick. I'm sure that with testing and tweaking a solution can be found.
In barb vs dh, a defensive legacy dh has a lot more stalemate potential, if they don't want to lose they will never lose, the movement speed advantage is pretty big.
Wizz still got the RoF buff which coupled with some ehp reductions to barbs can make that matchup pretty balanced
I know it's a dumb move from blizz but I think we all want top players to test builds and possible bans on ptr until saying that PvP is dead.
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Can somebody tell me how to run 30 sec from barb? He will chase us. I really dont know how... on tempestu rush yes? Then I need 18 spirit regen with 1 ias (10 for spelling tr and 8/sec for regen all spirit) - this is impossible.
I dont cry. I just thinking that rule inspiring presence or ignore pain is fair enough and will solve all the problems.
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Vs DH, any high EHP Barb can become unkillable even without Ignore Pain OR Overpower Crushing Advance, they simply mitigate too much damage over time now. Monks at least have bursty damage.
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Forti, pls stop posting about Monks vs Barbs. Obviously you are not enough experienced in that fight. Decent monks have no problems with spirit regen while using tempest rush. Its hard for a barb to catch that monk. Actually Monks vs Barbs its all about burst dmg - if you can kill the barb at one combo, no matter his life regen. Anyway if you cant kill him even when he has no Ignor pain, its pointless to play against him. I already told you - your hero is far away from good pvp potential and you face barbs that have reached it. Its normal to lose.
SO PLS, STOP POSTING! (about barbs and monks)
Barbs vs DH
Actually Dark Raven gave 1 good opinion. Banning defansive passive abilities like "Relentless", "Nerves of steel" could give some balance. I will test with top DH from eu once i have time.
Barbs vs Wizards
RoF is buffed with like 60%. That means wizards will do a lot more dmg to barbs. So maybe here buffing life regen is like balancing againts decent wizards. Wizard will have higher burst dmg potential, barb will have higher life regen. + wizards got buffed the teleport, so now they hunt and run easier. Iits again a matter of tests.
! And something important - pls note that the top barbs from eu league (vimer,devil,exe etc) are actually very good players, so its not only the class. Its also how do you use the class. (here i wont tell the rest of the players are noobs or like this - no, i face good opponents on the league. For example playing against a DH like Med its always good for me, since he is decent and his moves are good. Sometimes i need to improve my skill during the fight agaisnt him for being able to kill him. And dont say - but you win 5-1/5-2 against him. Maybe yes, but each round its hard)
Thx for the attention.
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I think there needs to be test league 2.0 with the same previous rules to test all this out, maybe not make it to long and look at whats happening and adjust from there. I cant speak from the other matchups but from the wiz vs barb perspective the buff to channeling might even out the regen with a little regearing and focusing on dps really bursting down fast as anytime the barb runs away its gona be like starting again. Really my worries are for the top notch barbs with incredible ehp who are already so hard to kill in 1.07, but we will have wait and see
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I think the Inspiring Presence buff really made the DH match up impossible. The other classes still have some options:
Barb - HotA still crushes Barbs with or without regen.
Monk - relies on burst damage where life regeneration won't be an issue if the Barb dies fast
WD - new Fire Bats + hex can really melt a Barb even with high regen
Wiz - new Ray of Frost can really melt a Barb even with high regen, can also freeze the Barb with Frost Nova.
DH - has no fast burst damage options and the new Rapid Fire is weaker than the regen and immobilizes the DH for a free rend.
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Iria, did you read what i have wrote?
IF we barbs have no defense passive ability like Relentless and Nerves of steel ( what actually barbs use on pvp), DH will do a lot more dmg to barbs. So maybe this could be a variant for balancing the fight. No Relentless - no the big problem when barbs are under 20% life. No Nerves of steel - Dh do a lot more dmg to the barbs since that is like - 5% + protection.
I think we need to test that.
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Nofear meyby you have to learn how kill monks? I see only you typing about that... go off from me, ok? I just wrote what I think.
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Iria, did you read what i have wrote?
IF we barbs have no defense passive ability like Relentless and Nerves of steel ( what actually barbs use on pvp), DH will do a lot more dmg to barbs. So maybe this could be a variant for balancing the fight. No Relentless - no the big problem when barbs are under 20% life. No Nerves of steel - Dh do a lot more dmg to the barbs since that is like - 5% + protection.
I think we need to test that.
Of course, we can do testing, what I was writing about was the current system with no class specific rules. Barb vs DH would always end up with Barb either winning or drawing, unless of course we impose some rules. The ban of Nerves of Steel and Relentless could maybe work but we need to ban both or the Barb will just replace one of the banned skills with Tough as Nails. If that still isn't enough, I'd ban Threatening Shout as well, War Cry is fine to keep since Barbs need it for fury.
Thus here is my list of things to ban in priority:
1) Nerves of Steel
2) Relentless
3) Threatening Shout
4) War Cry
I think banning all 4 would be too extreme but banning 2 or 3 could work.
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Forti, you try to offend me, but you cant, cuz i know how to kill monks - very few i cant beat. But i asure you, you are from the part ill take 5-0. Other barbs do not write here cuz obviosly no1 will hear them. And do not tell me what i have to learn since you wont be able to get me a kill. Next time more manners, ok?
Iria,just tested with Error on ptr without Nerves of steel/Relentless. We are balanced duel on real realm (that one who outplay the opponent wins), and without nerves of steel its actually going similar like In real game. So maybe banning relentless/nerves of steel is enough, but i will try ofc a lot more fights and will give more feedback. Also if you want we could make some fights each other?
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Even if blizz goes on with the buff I'm pretty sure we can balance it, where it's needed, and that is mostly dh vs barb.
In wiz vs barb actually the Ray of Frost buff and teleport buff are pretty good.
If any wizz doesn't use Critical Mass in games vs barb, start doing it now, it is amazing. Reduced cd on mirror, frost nova and bump wave is so good. Also teleport wormhole catches any sprinting barb easy.
Shadow88 with 230k and soj already melts pretty good ehp barbs that use all defensive skills, I don't understand how a wiz like kaio, for example, with 330k dps and soj would ever have a problem with ehp barbs.
I would say that barb vs wiz in 1.08 is perfectly fine, the only think that needs to be banned is probably Wotb but that too can prove too much if wizards are getting very long chain stuns with CM. Even when barbs want to run to regen teleport wormhole with the new buff catches them so fast.
The only real problem is barb vs dh.
I would say ban nerves and relentless and if it's not enough only allow warcry with fury gain rune.
Testing and fine tuning needs to be done at top level because the matchup can easily become one sided for DH if we nerf ehp too much.
@forti, good monks can 2 shot with 2 crit ( even 1 crit and 1 non crit) blue bells any barb if the barb doesn't dodge and he engages without IP. And also have the low aps and spirit regen to run faster than barbs with tempest rush...
Life reg buff only allows a quicker regen until next combo, but barbs are already waiting for IP 30 sec vs good monks...
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Also legacy nats dh is very skill intensive. I've seen mystical a lot of times saying that with close to optimal gear dh is favored. And if his average EU dh managed to kill top EU barbs I tend to believe him.
The problem is how do u make barb vs normal dh balanced without making top legacy nats players with good skills too imbalanced vs barbs?
Warcry ban was clearly a mistake which made barbs sitting fat ducks incapable of catching a good legacy dh... and actually encouraged stalemates as surviving for 30 minutes and waiting for the dh to fall asleep is the only chance.
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Also legacy nats dh is very skill intensive. I've seen mystical a lot of times saying that with close to optimal gear dh is favored. And if his average EU dh managed to kill top EU barbs I tend to believe him.
The problem is how do u make barb vs normal dh balanced without making top legacy nats players with good skills too imbalanced vs barbs?
Warcry ban was clearly a mistake which made barbs sitting fat ducks incapable of catching a good legacy dh... and actually encouraged stalemates as surviving for 30 minutes and waiting for the dh to fall asleep is the only chance.
About Mystical once again, he can´t kill good barbs if they have warcry with no other heavy restrictions, and if they don´t let him do this due to a stupid offensive low hp, dps gameplay. If he is able to land a kill on a defensive barb...this will take like 50 mins per round. This video vs Devil, says just nothing about balance of this matchup. I hope Mystical himself will write here something about this, i guess a lot of people just don´t get what he is talking about.
I don´t see Vimer having problems in getting a legacy DH. We tested yesterday a few fights in all options, with warcry, without, and much more..
2 options were for me possible.
1. Stalemate till Vimer leaves the game
2. Try to make pressure on him, with aggressive Smokescreen, Vault gameplay..and die after a short period because i just don´t hurt him. Statts i played with: 600 physical res, 78 k hp, 410 k dps (Legacy) <--- No, zero chance.
If someone thinks about the option that i maybe just suck vs barb, add me KNHO#2853 we can figure this out.
I realy just don´t have a idea how to balance this setup right now.
Irias and Nofears ideas will hopefully work! Im allways up for tests on PTR, add me..
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no offense knho, but I'm talking about unbuffed dps from diabloprogress.
I see u only have 165 there with soj, maybe it's with older gear but I don't think 410 unbuffed with legacy is possible.
in the vids mystical beat devil with d3cl rules he had about 180k unbuffed, with soj
I think error and predsr have around 240k with soj but I'm sure there are others with more in eu who could probably take vimer down.
I'll add u anyway to test
P.S. we can test with the no relentless no nerves idea that I posted, no warcry is stupid vs good legacy dh
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Ofc Raven i didn´t talked about unbuffed Dps.
The problem i personally have with the matchup is the question:
Do i go with Max dmg, low HP into the fight, and try to hurt a barb, but die in 2 crit rends?
or
Do i go with much EHP, hope for 5 lucky crit impales in a row, and don´t die in 2 crit rends?
The first option needs a absolute flawless gameplay by the DH even vs average barbs, because im very vulnerable and can´t afford to get rended.
The second option brings the "Stalemate" function with it. We play with each others balls, because i don´t have enough dmg to kill you, and also don´t like to die.
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I think that max damage, low-ish ehp and a lot of practice can do it.
u can always run and wait for preparation and / or pot if u get a crit rend but with enough practice the rends will be few and far between.
I actually played vs mystical right after he played devil, at first I underestimated him, I played with warcry but no threatening and he killed me eventually, with warcry it was stalemate but his dps is pretty bad on EU
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Im up for more tests today vs barbs/wd's predsr#2228
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Do i go with Max dmg, low HP into the fight, and try to hurt a barb, but die in 2 crit rends?
welcome to the world of wizz! - sry, that had to be :P
if anyone is interested in some test vs a wizz --> mokkal#2362
edit: ... when/if the ptr is up ...
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Do i go with Max dmg, low HP into the fight, and try to hurt a barb, but die in 2 crit rends?
welcome to the world of wizz! - sry, that had to be :P
Haha, but really what we consider squishy as wizz is tanky as a dh. we give our ar for granted and dh gear really sucks for ehp as the nats set has very limited random rolls.... big sacrifices in dex to be made if u want vit over 100 + ar and obviously forget about armour, e reduce or l reg.... but hey at least they get %life roll on chest, to loose it in helm btw only good ehp piece in nats is the boots which are awsome btw. legacy is even worse.
Now go compare that to a zuni chest....
btw: ximae#1789 if anyone wants to test stuff be it live or ptr.
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I disagree that monk - barb is all about burst. I've been duelling a lot against some various 220k hp barbs and what I found to work best is to go for crazy high exploding palm damage and keep them on low hp. This way they'll be running from you most of the time, and it's a bit of a back and forth cat and mouse game and the winner is usually the person that crits twice in a row but monks have a bit of an advantage then because when barbs get cocky after critting once, you can often bait them into the open and 1-shot them with sss.
The inspiring presence buff kills this tactic and I don't think it's possible to beat a 20m ehp barb with pure burst.
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In the discussions on Battlenet forums, the topics are overruned now by noobs that talk stupid stuff like "Even with this new life regen buff, Barbs will have a very hard time vs Dh´s".....Where are the players of this community? If a topic like this is made, we need to bomb them with arguments otherway it just doesn´t make sense.
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@up have right.
Guys.. I know im noob but.. We Need push the topic on battle.net.. Seriously.. These newbies that dueling only twice time or smth like that can not be voice of pvp players (or what ever like that...)
D2 was always about pvp. I think like 80-20% pvp to pve or even more. D3 are the same. Pve players stoping play one by one, pvp players have to get lead now.
Yee i know my English is sooo bad. I hope u know what i mean.
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in the vids mystical beat devil with d3cl rules he had about 180k unbuffed, with soj
my EU DH has about 150k unbuffed dps, 180k must have been with steady aim
I don't really have an opinion on inspiring presense, I think it's dumb, and I think most of us were pretty speechless when they released this. The 2% WD regen (note: 2% that's like barb's Inspiring presense in 1.0.7 LOL), combined with BT regen and fortitude reduction is also dumb
If he is able to land a kill on a defensive barb...this will take like 50 mins per round. This video vs Devil, says just nothing about balance of this matchup. I hope Mystical himself will write here something about this, i guess a lot of people just don´t get what he is talking about.
This is true. In my opinion, "defensive barbs" are actually trolling lol, these players are just playing a "DRAW or LOSE" game. If you do not have the DPS to kill them, you draw, they are testing your gear. However, if you are an impatient DH, you will lose, and this is what Barbs are taking advantage of now.
Stacking eHP and forcing draws is the easy way out. This is what you call the "Bunker style DH vs Barb" tactic, there is NO difference :)
Right now barbs are just charging at me in a straight line with high eHP, (PRO GAMEPLAY !1!1!!) so of course they will lose after ~20 minutes... Some are smarter and avoid straight line patterns and control the center... which is the only optimization in Barb vs DH gameplay since 1.0.7 PTR. Offense in D3 is where the skill is needed, and chasing your opponent in a line, or cutting corners is not skill. Everyone is capable of stacking VIT, Allres, Regen and hugging corners for a draw.
Regen buffs make it too easy to stalemate games. My opinion is that if you drop Nerves & Relentless, you can still hug corners and stalemate whenever you want (lol 9k hp regen?). Removing these passives will add balance, only if Barb uses PRO GAMEPLAY!1!1! style and chases their opponent in a straight line.
Sorry to say but I think only mirrors are interesting right now (DH vs. DH is still fun and skillful :) )
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Thank you MysticaL, i couldn´t agree more. I talk about this stuff all the time but nobody listens to me.
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http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8691259453?page=1
Thanks for the feedback! Based on discussions we’ve seen from players testing Inspiring Presence on the PTR, we’re going to go ahead and change Inspiring Presence back to its previous values. In a future PTR build, it will return 2% of your maximum Life per second instead of 4%. This is being done to keep it in line with other Life regeneration skills.*Edit* I should note that we're keeping the part where it will buff your allies.
;)
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Blue post TL;DR:
Inspiring Presence is going back to 2% but with AoE effect (no effect in PVP).
However, I think the Brooding and Blood Ritual bonuses are going to be 2% still. You guys think that is ok? Or do we need to ban those skills? (I don't use brooding anyways with my playstyle.)
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I suggest a ban of Brooding and Aid Station vs. Wizards, it's too easy to run hide from them and reset to full HP in 25s max.
For WDs I suggest that they have to choose between Blood Ritual and Jungle Fortitude in all match-ups. Their offensive abilities will also need some restrictions depending on the match-ups, Spirit Barrage + Haunt + buffed Firebats is impossible to deal with for any class.
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Blue post TL;DR:
Inspiring Presence is going back to 2% but with AoE effect (no effect in PVP).
However, I think the Brooding and Blood Ritual bonuses are going to be 2% still. You guys think that is ok? Or do we need to ban those skills? (I don't use brooding anyways with my playstyle.)
Those skills may prove to be overpowered with shields. Can you imagine a WD built the same way as a barb with the 2% life regen? They won't need to get into range to rend anymore, just haunt/spider/barrage from 2 screens away while laughing off damage. Remember, they also have 30% damage reduction in PvP, so they can be almost just as tanky as top-end barbs.
One thing is for certain, monks are definitely getting shafted this patch.
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Blue post TL;DR:
Inspiring Presence is going back to 2% but with AoE effect (no effect in PVP).
However, I think the Brooding and Blood Ritual bonuses are going to be 2% still. You guys think that is ok? Or do we need to ban those skills? (I don't use brooding anyways with my playstyle.)
good news. i think it should have been 3% due to the other life regen buffs but i guess ill take the invigorate buff ;)
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Tank wd are already impossible to kill by barbs they have so many stuns and heals, u can't keep the dps on them.
I tried vs one with 200k hp, even with 100k skorn and soj, hota and rend I barely scratched him, but it was with hex...
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I suggest a ban of Brooding and Aid Station vs. Wizards, it's too easy to run hide from them and reset to full HP in 25s max.
For WDs I suggest that they have to choose between Blood Ritual and Jungle Fortitude in all match-ups. Their offensive abilities will also need some restrictions depending on the match-ups, Spirit Barrage + Haunt + buffed Firebats is impossible to deal with for any class.
Battle scars and boar are allready banned, now you think about forbid brooding and aid station.
Forbid +Globe heal too, then i am complete nacked vs Wizzard :))
Dh is allready forced to be very defensive vs good Wizzards + to stack like me, a shitload of HP and Lightning resists to survive a SA shot.
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Ive not played any wiz in ptr yet, so havnt been following the changes made with them but brooding was v strong in earlier rules, i would guess the 2% brooding might be a little OP but then again ive done no tests :) wizz hit me up on ptr predsr#2228 (i got work now so in 9 hrs time)
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I suggest a ban of Brooding and Aid Station vs. Wizards, it's too easy to run hide from them and reset to full HP in 25s max.
For WDs I suggest that they have to choose between Blood Ritual and Jungle Fortitude in all match-ups. Their offensive abilities will also need some restrictions depending on the match-ups, Spirit Barrage + Haunt + buffed Firebats is impossible to deal with for any class.
Battle scars and boar are allready banned, now you think about forbid brooding and aid station.
Forbid +Globe heal too, then i am complete nacked vs Wizzard :))
Dh is allready forced to be very defensive vs good Wizzards + to stack like me, a shitload of HP and Lightning resists to survive a SA shot.
Well, you still have HP globes and regen on gear which is btw. all that Wizards have in any match-up. (note: 2% that's like Inspiring Presence in 1.07, 4% that's like the OP Inspiring Presence on PTR ;))
As long as other classes have the regen advantage Wizards will never win. They don't have the damage to 1-2 shot you if you're geared correctly and their sole mobility skill has a 16s cooldown.
/edit
The discussion in that PTR feedback thread is so stupid. HC pve players think the 4% inspiring buff is for them as a measure against lags and disconnects, lol.
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Well technically the ip buff wasn't "for" anyone, just hardcore pve barbs and pvp use regen
I think blizzard just looked at the lack of players using life regen in softcore pve and said "this skill need buff" without thinking ;D
Now hardcore barbs mad every class gets buff but them haha
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They play hc because they Need hard game and better Economy, but now they cry ghey cant be almost immortal.
I think blizz will make pvp more balanced, only if we will push them this way.
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I suggest a ban of Brooding and Aid Station vs. Wizards, it's too easy to run hide from them and reset to full HP in 25s max.
For WDs I suggest that they have to choose between Blood Ritual and Jungle Fortitude in all match-ups. Their offensive abilities will also need some restrictions depending on the match-ups, Spirit Barrage + Haunt + buffed Firebats is impossible to deal with for any class.
Battle scars and boar are allready banned, now you think about forbid brooding and aid station.
Forbid +Globe heal too, then i am complete nacked vs Wizzard :))
Dh is allready forced to be very defensive vs good Wizzards + to stack like me, a shitload of HP and Lightning resists to survive a SA shot.
i actually did test this with error in ptr and man he was practically impossible to kill in that bunker style... he hated his lack of mobility though, which i tried to abuse but its just imposiible for a wiz to trade in that scenario... get out dpsed and outhealed.
have a similar issue with wds.... just loose/loose trading with them.... and ur always at a mobility disadvantage.
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Wizards just need to wait for the itemization patch,
Buffed frostburns and buff ilvl 58 or whatever wand that adds 30% cold damage 8)
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hc barb can be immortal w/o ip buff anyway .. its all about the items, that hc lacks