Diablo 3 Clan League - PvP forum
Duelling & Diablo 3 => Rules & development => Topic started by: Mr.Mag on January 16, 2013, 08:46:05 am
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We really did not want to set any rules, but it seems that we have to. The less rules we'll set, the better. If Blizz won't make pvp cap the first and maybe the only thing so far to change is dps on weapon. What do you think? It can discourage people but duels in present form are pointless.
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havent had a chance to play @ ptr yet, but from what i seen at one of the streams, dps is to high, maybe blizz will apply some changes before releasing the patch officialy, if not the dps limit seems the best option for start
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plz bump my thread http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/6297483272#1 :)
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I think forcing people to not use the eq they paid for is just not the right way to go.
Several people, myself included, spent lots of time/effort to get the eq and giving it up would really make pointless all the time spent playing/collecting gear.
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In that case we have to answer one serious question - are the tournament results based on player's skill or time spent to get good items.
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both items and skill should 'create' success in pvp but now this proportion is 99/1. we have to find the golden mean. i hope blizz will add some % dmg reduction for pvp and such a radical steps wont be necessery.
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Unfortunately, dps cap itself will not cure the situation. I've played pvp for like 1 hour and even I can see some totally op skills/items...
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I think definitly for example Smoke Screen shoud be forbidden in some matchups - vs barb for example they don't have any chance. I'm DH with not bad HS - not barb - and i must admit that i start play with my friendly vgood barbs without SS cause it's boring to win and win all the time vs them :]
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This gets tricky, it would require to check his all skills, skill by skill, passive by passive, to say barb has no chance against Smoke Screen. But if you investigated this so far, sure, go on.
What about chakram? Seemed crazy too.
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Kitek battletag please. I would love to try and fight with your dh.
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U have on PM.
I'd love to make some tests in this matchup, saesa make a good point, but that must be checked.
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The best will be that every class will have same HP and DPS, but not like 100k/300k but like 2k/100...
I have WD quite good geared, on PTR after changing gems i had like 200k DPS/75k HP/600@ress - but it was boring, when I get to game with 3 barbs (then changed to 2baba/1dh) and I was like 300w/20l - rly...
And today - 90k HP, 600@ress and 120k monk is 1 shot me with his giant bell...
Now PvP isn't about skill, it's all about luck.
So for me, best would be like some1 sugested - white/blue items for everyone - there will be duelmaster who will carry these item sets for ppl and when their match start they take it and then give it back.
But next prob - PLvL... When 10PLvL duel with 100PLvL it's 270 main stat and 180 vit more for second one... So it means that everyone should make alt sticte for dueling (well, it will be hard for me, as I have 10x 60lvl, and one WD is my main and 2nd one is on HC... :P).
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Without yet go in depts;
I have seen every class, without billion dollah gear set- perform really well against every other class.
By making their own tweaks to skills and items facing a specific class.
There has always been a decent quality on the items from the player's wich I am speaking, but nothing special and all within the reach of what whomever dedicated player could get to obtain.
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PvP Is still in early phase, and for now I see no direct point of item helping you roflstomp your opponent.
I see no class that directly help you roflstomp your opponent, yet there are a few skills that is to strong and will probably be tweaked during the adjustment of b oth blizzard and players.
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For the time I do not have any direct suggestions on rules to balance out shortcomings in specefic matchups or the few imbalanced spells.
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Is the decision for the League duels to be held on Inferno final?
Also in the rules text here: "eploiting the competitive aspect of the game" I think you meant exploring not exploiting.
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Is the decision for the League duels to be held on Inferno final?
Also in the rules text here: "eploiting the competitive aspect of the game" I think you meant exploring not exploiting.
Yes I am interested as well, can we duel in lowest difficulty?
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Yes in theory it's possible but we don't know the differences as of yet.
In d2 it was clear: every step up the ladder gave - resistance giving sorceress more benefit to melee chars so we set the duels to be held in normal. For d3 it seems this principle does not apply (the monsters have been made much stronger :)).
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Yes in theory it's possible but we don't know the differences as of yet.
In d2 it was clear: every step up the ladder gave - resistance giving sorceress more benefit to melee chars so we set the duels to be held in normal. For d3 it seems this principle does not apply (the monsters have been made much stronger :)).
It's about lifeleech in d3 ... inferno difficulty reduces lifeleech by 80%
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It's about lifeleech in d3 ... inferno difficulty reduces lifeleech by 80%
this
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Yes in theory it's possible but we don't know the differences as of yet.
In d2 it was clear: every step up the ladder gave - resistance giving sorceress more benefit to melee chars so we set the duels to be held in normal. For d3 it seems this principle does not apply (the monsters have been made much stronger :)).
It's about lifeleech in d3 ... inferno difficulty reduces lifeleech by 80%
good point, didn't consider it.
is it working in pvp? how does it work in pvp? do we want lifeleech in pvp? I don't have the answers to these questions yet but it's important to find this out. Maybe you can do some tests and present them here Richi so we can discuss it?
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It is working, it works same as in pve ... Yes we do.
You decided to run league in inferno difficulty without further testing? Weakens DH's who play with shadowpower (yes I tested it).
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It is working, it works same as in pve ... Yes we do.
You decided to run league in inferno difficulty without further testing? Weakens DH's who play with shadowpower (yes I tested it).
Okay, that may well be possible and the first season will show if and how DH's are competing against the other chars. Please be aware of the unique situation we are in: everything is new and everything is open for discussion but we have to start somewhere. We will go from here and see how the balance is during and after season 1 to come up with improvements and changes for season 2.
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kk I agree^
I although think there's still no reason to define that duels must be played in inferno like you just did for this very first season of d3cl, but well ...
RoGH 2013-02-14 23:39
Because its the most common way of dueling...
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It is LS I had in mind when I asked about inferno. I do however agree with the current rule. Seems like the community has already decided.
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no1 decided, just every1 made games on inferno - coz it was the most common way of making them on pvm, so why not pvp ? hmm
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Where did you get your gear and paragon levels, on normal difficulty?
The only reason D2 duels were played in Normal was XP loss in classic, so in D2X people continued to launch Normal diff games (probably because ppl did not want to worry about resists + Frozen Orb balance + more difficult killing of zombies and quill fiends)
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there were many occasions that ppl tried to pvp on hell diff ? and quess what, normal it was..
mostly due to rezist where the soso had more advantage on hell diff, and ppl just stacked more charms etc. what was annoying or something .. and necro walls ? dont remember, was so long time ago .. normal made it pretty "balanced" comparing to hell..
in d3 there is no such thing, the main thing is loh/ll nerf .. but maybe in the future ppl will find out more..
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There is no discussion about difficulty needed, it's as simple:
Lifeleech is reduced in all difficulties besides normal. D3CL administration decided that dueling in inferno is the common way to duel. So leech is probably useless.
We play league in inferno or we don't play any league. End of story.
Another question since I didnt find anything about it: Are you allowed to switch skills between the rounds?
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you can change skills between round so far but all active skills must be available on duel. you cant use a buff and change it to another one while previous skill is still working. this is not clarified in rules but will be.
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no1 decided, just every1 made games on inferno - coz it was the most common way of making them on pvm, so why not pvp ? hmm
Richi, this kinda covers the process - I understand DH is having a harder time but the coin may turn the other way aswell: maybe leech will give DH the edge.. like I said earlier: This season is our baseline, from here will we start developing the rules for the coming seasons. We see that WD has a strong advantage against all classes and the next season will see a change to that. How and what? Unknown yet, but you will be able to see the discussion once it start here in this board. We are currently preparing and smoothing out which angle we, as staff, will take on this.
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Yes I understand that I just clarified the difficulty discussion above!
And it's not about dh's particularly btw.
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Seeing as WDs are dominating, here are a couple of rule balancing suggestions:
- Limit number of CC's the WD can have to just 1 CC skill (no fear + hex at same time, only one of the two)
- If the WD has Spirit Walk, they can not have Spirit Vessel passive
Imo this should limit the "cat and mouse" playstyle that I found most evident with WDs
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Hello everyone,
I want to note that in some encounters certain classes can reach the point of not killing eachother because of their built or their playstyle. This can easily happen with tanks, "hit and run for regen" and some other yet undiscovered builts.
We all know that players can switch their builts if they agree. But nobody will change to a built/playstyle that has no chance to defeat the opponent by his own will.
This is why I propose to implement a time limit of 10 minutes per round. If the limit is reached that round will be draw and both players must change their built. A built change is considered when you change at least 50% of your skills (actives + passives), note that changing just runes is not considered a built change.
I hope you too find this rule necessary to avoid frustrating situations and also to add a fair amount of built diversity to avoid "cookie cutter" characters that diminish the fun factor.
Thank you to for this competition and your collaboration!
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time limit is something worth considering, however i'm not sure if the solution is proper, lets see what others think about it
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Hello everyone,
I want to note that in some encounters certain classes can reach the point of not killing eachother because of their built or their playstyle. This can easily happen with tanks, "hit and run for regen" and some other yet undiscovered builts.
We all know that players can switch their builts if they agree. But nobody will change to a built/playstyle that has no chance to defeat the opponent by his own will.
This is why I propose to implement a time limit of 10 minutes per round. If the limit is reached that round will be draw and both players must change their built. A built change is considered when you change at least 50% of your skills (actives + passives), note that changing just runes is not considered a built change.
I hope you too find this rule necessary to avoid frustrating situations and also to add a fair amount of built diversity to avoid "cookie cutter" characters that diminish the fun factor.
Thank you to for this competition and your collaboration!
or ban reg life
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i agree with damx. life regen was a problem even on d2. this is unfair and unnecessarily makes duel longer.
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Hello everyone,
I want to note that in some encounters certain classes can reach the point of not killing eachother because of their built or their playstyle. This can easily happen with tanks, "hit and run for regen" and some other yet undiscovered builts.
We all know that players can switch their builts if they agree. But nobody will change to a built/playstyle that has no chance to defeat the opponent by his own will.
This is why I propose to implement a time limit of 10 minutes per round. If the limit is reached that round will be draw and both players must change their built. A built change is considered when you change at least 50% of your skills (actives + passives), note that changing just runes is not considered a built change.
I hope you too find this rule necessary to avoid frustrating situations and also to add a fair amount of built diversity to avoid "cookie cutter" characters that diminish the fun factor.
Thank you to for this competition and your collaboration!
The tank with high regen was me :'(
I agree about time limit, but change the 50% of the skills after a "draw" is a bit too much by my opinion, specially for a barb it's needed just to change a rune and maybe a skill.
Unfortunately situation of tank vs tank or evasive vs evasive or runner vs slow or runner vs runner makes a lot of misundertandings and "waste of time", like yesterday night.
I have a nice proposal for the new ruleset and i think it will balance some overpowered build and promote mixed playstyles and player skills:
Before to start the duel you declare what skill your opponent can't use. So for example vs a WD i will choose Hex, or people may choose to remove from a barb sprint or wotb.
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the problem with reg life in d3, is that few major skills, give such bonus .. hmm, after the league ends, there can be 1-2 week trsting league that will promote new rules such as banned reg life
@herc - imo it could be good idea, but with the limitations of skills, coz ppl vs dh with choose to ban smoke screen or vs wd spirit walk :P
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the problem with reg life in d3, is that few major skills, give such bonus .. hmm, after the league ends, there can be 1-2 week trsting league that will promote new rules such as banned reg life
@herc - imo it could be good idea, but with the limitations of skills, coz ppl vs dh with choose to ban smoke screen or vs wd spirit walk :P
Or barb sprint. why not?
Ban life regen means you ban a barb passive ( that's the only thing that makes most barb competitive ), same for DH. I don't think is fair, and maybe mantain Hex? no thanks :o
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well folliwing that, we can make a rule that will not ban barb reg skill, but ban the rest .. its to early to propose such complicated rulez imo
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the problem with reg life in d3, is that few major skills, give such bonus .. hmm, after the league ends, there can be 1-2 week trsting league that will promote new rules such as banned reg life
@herc - imo it could be good idea, but with the limitations of skills, coz ppl vs dh with choose to ban smoke screen or vs wd spirit walk :P
I also thought about banning some skills in certain classes but I found that this isn't the right approach because -as you correctly stated- it can just make the whole class unviable.
My proposition of forcing a built change is intended to be non-restrictive. The case scenario is:
1.- You enter a duel with your standard built.
2.- No one gets ever killed.
3.- No one will change to a lesser competitive built/strategy.
Once you arrive here this is a total no/no. This undesired situation is a deadlock and has no solution, therefore it has to be draw.
From this point, the most fair scenario I came up with is to avoid the deadlock forcing a built change for both opponents. I pulled that 50% of skill (not runes) changes from my hat because it seems a guaranteed built/strategy change for any class.
Of course as HERC noted a built change can be done by just switching 1 single skill thus that 50% change would be an unnecessary overkill.
I don't personally like forbidding entire mechanics and skills for example life regen or spirit walk. Mainly because any skill can be a good way to make many builts viable and avoid "cookie cutters". Normaly it's a combination of 2-4 skills what defines a built/playstyle so we can define what builts (skill combinations) can't be repeated.
In D2 each class had very clearly defined builts, maybe we could enumerate every built by class/skills for D3 and state them for the forcefully change so we can still have interesting duels even after the change. Then we wont have to use gimped builts and will still have fun.
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In my opinion rules should be made similar to what we had in most D2 leagues back in the day: Specific rules for all match-ups. I just don't think universal rules alone, e.g. "no life regen" or "ban skill xy", will be sufficient. They could do more harm than good. That's the kind of balancing we can expect from Blizzard (flat 30%/35% reduce *cough*), but we can certainly do better ;)
I'm sure that many knowledgable players would volunteer to test all possible match-ups.
@error
Who would define the first build though? This could lead to players provoking a stalemate if they feel that they can't win in the current setup and that they could gain an advantage by forcing the opponent to use lesser skills. Tanky players could bluff and use weaker skills in the beginning to strip their opponents of their strong skills.
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IMO pvp should have life limit and life regen limit. For now is immpossible to kill someone with 150k hp + 4k reg + 7k+armor +700 ress. To force ppl to make balanced build (dps and survival) not only survival builds we should make a hp limit for all classes and regen life limit (for example ~1-1,5k, because many times in normal items who everyone have, like Vile Ward is a bit of regen life, banning it to 0 is bad decision).
Banning specific skills is bad idea. Why? For example: in first league wd/dh are best. So you will ban SS for DH and Spirit Walk for WD, and in next league barbs/monks will be overpower, so you will ban some barb/monk skills, in next league will win wizz (for example ofc) because you banned best skills of other classes, and you will ban wizz skills. This will never end, so better method to force ppl to fight not run and regen life is to limit HP and limit regen life. (what limit? we should make a poll with proposition, 80/90/100/110/120k?)
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u got a good vile ward dont u? =)
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[...]better method to force ppl to fight not run and regen life is to limit HP and limit regen life. (what limit? we should make a poll with proposition, 80/90/100/110/120k?)
yea... Trying to chase barb and monk its realy pathetic.
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!!! MY !!! experience so far …
Attributes:
People with high AR/Armor/Life/Lreg tend to have lower DPS.
IF (!!!) these people also have high dps - why hurt them by making caps?
They earned to be better than others, cause they farmed (or RMAHed … whatever ^^) their gear.
By adding caps to some attributes - imo the harm would be more than leaving it the way it is now.
You have 2 options to „beat“ such enemies.
Adopt and be more glass-cannonish and try to strife against this massive defense,
or let the fight end in a tie – easy as that.
Just add something like a 5 minute timer for every separate round in each match – no death after this time round would be a tie.
This would also imply that a whole game can end in 5-5.
And btw – who would monitor it, if the enemy really hast said caps? Swapping gear is pretty easy in a fight :)
Skills:
I somehow like the idea of banning certain skills (or even just runes) in some matchups!
This could lead to more fighting than running :)
„Bad Manner“:
Imo if you are low on health and run around for like 20+ seconds just to regain life isnt a sign for a high skilled player. It’s abusing some skills/attributes just fort he sake of winning. Sure winning is important, but with this behavoir the factor „fun“ lies behind.
No clue how to stop that – maybe with class-vs-class skill bans (like mentioned before)
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manner plays way behind role when it comes to ladders and winning .. its just human nature :P
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In my opinion rules should be made similar to what we had in most D2 leagues back in the day: Specific rules for all match-ups. I just don't think universal rules alone, e.g. "no life regen" or "ban skill xy", will be sufficient. They could do more harm than good. That's the kind of balancing we can expect from Blizzard (flat 30%/35% reduce *cough*), but we can certainly do better ;)
I'm sure that many knowledgable players would volunteer to test all possible match-ups.
@error
Who would define the first build though? This could lead to players provoking a stalemate if they feel that they can't win in the current setup and that they could gain an advantage by forcing the opponent to use lesser skills. Tanky players could bluff and use weaker skills in the beginning to strip their opponents of their strong skills.
Hi Euronymous,
I like your question about the first built. I think this is the key factor to solve this problem. In D2 we hadn't this problem because classes only had one set of skills. This is why I came up with the standard built in my last scenario post.
Every player must have a defined standard built to avoid forced stalemates. If classes don't have a predefined built/playstyle there are more chances of forced stalemate. The predefined standard built must be the first built used in the encounter so there are many less chances of players trying that bait & switch skills to force stalemates.
Some of you may think: "Ok, but I use different builts vs different classes". This is not true. You may use different builts vs different class-builts because any class can be a glass canon/tank/balanced/sniper/etc...
If we apply plain restrictions to skills, max HP, life regen, armor, etc... we are not only breaking tanks in every class, we may also be making some hybrid class/builts unviable that relied on those capped mechanics. It is not the same having 200k hp, 5k armor, 500 all res and 2k regen than having 150k hp, 10k armor, 1k all res and 4k regen. The first player is extending EHP by stacking vitality and the second is just unkillable.
Some restrictions may be good or not but any character that can run arround for endless time while waiting for its HP to regen or for skills to regen its HP (i.e. Serenity,Preparation,Sacrifice,etc...) and that must not be allowed for the sake of fun. I think the root of the problem is not the regen mechanic itself but the abuse of it. One more example. Imagine no HP regen for anyone, what do you do vs a Storm Armor wizzard that runs arround? Maybe the real problem is running arround.
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manner plays way behind role when it comes to ladders and winning .. its just human nature :P
Let's change the ladder system then. This solution can't be more simple: Prisoner's dilemma.
Set of rules:
1- Rounds that last more than 5 minutes are draw (like a double KO) +1/+1.
2- Encounters that end in 5/5 (draw encounters) make both opponents lose double quantity of points.
3- Subsequent draw encounters will double the last penalty applied to each opponent (exponential growth for everyone).
Exponential growth penalty is not an excessive penalty because the objective is to get rid of unwanted behaviours that harm the spirit of the competition. It will also get rid of certain builts/playstyles that feel bad to the majority of participants.
Any standard dueler may prefer forcing a stalemate if he truly believes he's not being bad mannered because he will have the opportunity to overcome a bad score of 2-4 or even 8 lost encounters in extreme cases.
Obviously if someone is facing a penalty of 16-32-64 encounters may think twice before forcing a stalemate (unless he's a psyco and wants to get buried in the ladder). Someone in this position must have common acceptance problems because many people in the competition don't like his ways and he is undoubtly bad mannered to the rest of the comunity in any sort of form.
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I'm not quite sure if ELO system supports draws when both players lose points. i'm afraid this is undesirable situation. One thing is certain, something needs to be done with draws.
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I'm a wizard player and an old member of euro-pvp.
I'm top 5 wiz pvp dummy in world.
If I play vs similar barb/dh/monk is near a 100% lost.
Played vs Heroman (one of the top barb) simple impossible to win even a round
Played vs SINI (my korean bro ;D) Impossible
Played vs Monk using bell build got 50% to win
Played vs top Dh -> Impossible to win
No need to say what happend vs WD.
I think we can't wait blizzard to fix this cose they simple don't care about it even if I think the only thing that make us play d2 for so long was only pvp.
What we have to do if we want to make pvp better is to set some rules asap cose for me now this league got no sense as almost all duells are autolose.
I'm open to test and help all the possible solutions.
kaio#2367
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Let's change the ladder system then. This solution can't be more simple: Prisoner's dilemma.
Set of rules:
1- Rounds that last more than 5 minutes are draw (like a double KO) +1/+1.
2- Encounters that end in 5/5 (draw encounters) make both opponents lose double quantity of points.
3- Subsequent draw encounters will double the last penalty applied to each opponent (exponential growth for everyone).
This could be good BUT some players still can abuse system. For example: you are top1 in rank, you play with medium opponent and you can lose ~40 score. If he is DH he can use build to run fast and you will be unable to kill him in 5 minutes. He can specially draw to take your 80 points from your overall score.
And what with normal draws, like 4:4, I will kill enemy and I will die from rend/haunt? It's 5:5 too...
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we'll contact you soon coz we're creating dev team to set up the rules and we have no good wizard on board :)
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we'll contact you soon coz we're creating dev team to set up the rules and we have no good wizard on board :)
thx a lot!!
Do it before I sell all items and quit d3! ;D
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Are stalemates really that big of a problem right now? Wouldn't it be sufficient to just draw with +-0 for the rare occasion and avoid those players in the future? There are more than enough duelers out there to gain points.
Error, the rules you suggested would make dueling less fun for me. I really think what we need most now are match-up rules to even out class imbalances.
I obviously agree with kaio here, wizards need a huge buff by league rules.
Every player must have a defined standard built to avoid forced stalemates. If classes don't have a predefined built/playstyle there are more chances of forced stalemate.
a. Same build to begin all duels. Takes away one of the most interesting features D3 has to offer. I never had a stalemate yet, thanks to the diversity of WDs. If I see a really tanky barb I just pack more offensive skills. A "one-for-all" build would have to be balanced and therefore lack the damage needed to take down some tanks. In this case the rule would force me to force a stalemate.
Set of rules:
1- Rounds that last more than 5 minutes are draw (like a double KO) +1/+1.
2- Encounters that end in 5/5 (draw encounters) make both opponents lose double quantity of points.
3- Subsequent draw encounters will double the last penalty applied to each opponent (exponential growth for everyone).
b. This will give "bad mannered" players another option. Once you are leading, avoid getting killed for 5 minutes and you will win the duel.
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I dont think that enforcing builds will work and very few people would like to play like this. Banning certain skills that are impossible to counter is the way to go.
Now in regards to life regen on tanky builds I think that ideally we should try and create a community that is free of people trying to ruin the fun of pvp. You can ban 3k + regen for instance but people will come up with some other lame ideas for sure. Perhaps you could introduce a fair play statement alongside the Rules that would basically ask people not to use lame tactics or any form of grief. I mean we are a small community and if some individuals will ruin the fun for others they can be simply excluded from the league at jugde's discretion.
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remember about one important thing. even if we create a fantastic but complicated rules, we have to be able to enforce those rules. i'm sure a lot of cheaters will appear ;)
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I think it's very important that we keep our rules as simple as possible and do our best to NOT limit gearing options unless there's no other way. I really don't think life regen is as big of a problem as some of you make it sound. It's just the high regen rend/sprint barb that's causing issues, oh and maybe the TR Monk and Brooding DH.
Best solution for draws imo as someone posted earlier: if 1st game is a draw after 5mins, players can 'ban' 1 of their opponent's skills. I think this problem is mostly barb-centered and with this rule, their opponent can choose to either ban sprint or rend for example, so their hit&run tactics don't work anymore. Ofcourse they're at a big disadvantage then but this risk just promotes more active play in the 1st game.
I do agree that wd's should probably be nerfed a little and wizards buffed a little, but am unsure what's the best way to do this.
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Best solution for draws imo as someone posted earlier: if 1st game is a draw after 5mins, players can 'ban' 1 of their opponent's skills. I think this problem is mostly barb-centered and with this rule, their opponent can choose to either ban sprint or rend for example, so their hit&run tactics don't work anymore. Ofcourse they're at a big disadvantage then but this risk just promotes more active play in the 1st game.
this can be nicely abused aswell :)
for example if someone just tries to get a draw 1st round and takes away my skill: blizzard, my main dmg is gone - even though i didnt want to get a draw.
But due the fact i cant reach TR Monks and Sprint Barbs (if they want to do so) i have a nearly 0% chance to "avoid" this scenario.
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Anything with timer is clueless and heavily abused. History proved it. You play with watch or enjoy dueling?
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Are stalemates really that big of a problem right now? Wouldn't it be sufficient to just draw with +-0 for the rare occasion and avoid those players in the future? There are more than enough duelers out there to gain points.
Error, the rules you suggested would make dueling less fun for me. I really think what we need most now are match-up rules to even out class imbalances.
I obviously agree with kaio here, wizards need a huge buff by league rules.
Every player must have a defined standard built to avoid forced stalemates. If classes don't have a predefined built/playstyle there are more chances of forced stalemate.
a. Same build to begin all duels. Takes away one of the most interesting features D3 has to offer. I never had a stalemate yet, thanks to the diversity of WDs. If I see a really tanky barb I just pack more offensive skills. A "one-for-all" build would have to be balanced and therefore lack the damage needed to take down some tanks. In this case the rule would force me to force a stalemate.
Set of rules:
1- Rounds that last more than 5 minutes are draw (like a double KO) +1/+1.
2- Encounters that end in 5/5 (draw encounters) make both opponents lose double quantity of points.
3- Subsequent draw encounters will double the last penalty applied to each opponent (exponential growth for everyone).
b. This will give "bad mannered" players another option. Once you are leading, avoid getting killed for 5 minutes and you will win the duel.
I bet my underwear rubberband that something different being implemented will be less fun for you. WD excels in 1vs1 in terms of micromanaging, dps, skill mechanics and ehp(via induction). Blizzard did no mechanic balancing at all between classes. Wizzards and WDs are the living prove, both are ranged, based on the same main stat and a very similar resource system. ATM WDs are kings of pvp and Wizzys are the boufon. Sad but true.
Jokes appart, I will try to answer your statements:
A- Other classes simply can't get more DPS to take down tank barbs. The same way other classes can't have enough microing/DPS/EHP/skill mechanics to defeat certaing opponents. It is completely unfair receiving a challenge from a class-built one has no chance to defeat because of those inherent limitations. Then we either can restrict builts/skills against certain classes, limit some mechanics or promote stalemates as an option.
I personally don't like limitations because it will force us to use cookie cutter builts or getting rid -as you said- of most interesting features in the game.
B- I might not explained myself with the right example. The Prisonner's Dilemma is an iterative unregulated approach to achieve common weal. We may want to use stalemate as a not wished solution thus punishing its repeated use. If a player thinks smart because he's manipulating the challenge system clogging the limitation mechanism and just challenging players with builts over he's a clear advantage those classes can "punish" this behaviour by forcing stalemates from the first moment. I think a bad mannered player will be bad mannered from the start because he doesn't identify himself as bad mannered, he thinks he's better/smarter via abbusing ubalanced classes.
If i didn't misunderstand the scenario you stated the "bad mannered" player starts being bad mannered so he can win the first duel. There's also the possibility of the bad mannered using the draw 5 minute timer once he's had advantage. In this case we must implement a new rule that states something like:
- No player can change his built if he's in advantage.
I need you to keep thinking about scenarios with such conflicts and weird cases to find an acceptable solution for everyone.
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Anything with timer is clueless and heavily abused. History proved it. You play with watch or enjoy dueling?
I don't personally like to play with watch but I have a wife and a kid and the last think I want when I come home is chasing people for 20 minutes arround the map. Or even worse, not being able to kill them by any means. I want to enjoy this game and fool arround with the pvp option while having fun. But I may consider playing with watch as a solution.
We should be aware of current abuses with the challenge and rating ladder. I don't know if it's being already controlled but you can actually clog the challenge queue and minimize your challenge window availability to other people. I think one should have 10 limited challenge options but being always able to be challenged by anyone. Also there should be a timeout for incoming challenges so anyone wouldn't be allowed to delay an encounter without punishment. I just like to punish.
I also think it isn't good that you can duel against players with more than 100 score difference (up or down).
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Error, I don't really see why banning a few skills depending on match-ups forces us to use "cookie-cutter" builds. If anything it breaks cookie-cutter builds, forcing you to get more creative and explore other ways to defeat your opponents.
The most obvious example right now is Hex vs. Barbs. You will not find a WD not using it in a league match. Ban it and you will find at least a few different skills replacing it. They are all not as good as Hex obviously, that's why everyone used Hex before, but they will all be viable in certain situations.
It's such an obvious and easy change and will greatly improve that match-up. It's easy to monitor too, if you're not seeing the doll your opponent isn't using Hex :D
How do you plan to balance classes without limitations anyway?
Another rule I'd like to see is:
No item-switching during a round. I've seen (not on d3cl yet, but on PTR and streams) people go from full DPS to full tank within a second or do all kinds of tricks. Swapping gear should result in a auto-loss (0-5) and a warning. Multiple warnings should result in a ban from the league.
Sometimes it might not be easy to see or prove it, but the rule alone should prevent most people from doing it.
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First of all I see banning skills in certain match-ups as a viable solution but it's not the best solution from my point of view. Is the way you use the skill mechanics what makes it OP, not the skill itself. For example if you ban Hex from WD-Barb encounters you are killing the built "Tank WD that uses Hex to avoid being damaged". We should be able to figure out every built/gear from every class or we will have many problems trying to come up with the skill balancing encounters table.
About the item switching this is very true and this is actually happening. That's why I got the idea from the "default" built that should also be extended to gear. Any player should know what's going to be used by the opponent every round because a built for some classes is skills and gear specific. Switching gear in the middle of the combat is the same as switching skills without having the 30 seconds penalty.
From this point, knowing what skills/gear are default for every player it should be easier to control match-ups vs other classes.
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the rules of this league is going to cause 1 hour+ long matches by ppl going stalemate specs.
need something like this for pvp to work
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7908401111?page=3#51
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the rules of this league is going to cause 30 min - 1 hour long matches by ppl going stalemate specs.
need something like this for pvp to work
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7908401111?page=3#51
from my experiences the only way any kind of competitive dueling can take place is something like this.
this is the only way to deal with the "stale-mate specs/setups" when often that's not the case but it's a matter of re-specing and gearing towards your opponent's build/spec.
This also keeps the game's other fun side which is gearing up your character a certain way and progressing slowly to the perfect ideal character you would like to have.
I personally use a PVP set of over 30 items that I inter-change depending on my opponent's gear setup and their spec that they use with that gear setup. I rarely use the same generic gear set for one class, which I think is a very interesting part of d3 pvp.
For example I could have make a high burst, low ehp, high regen build vs a low dps, high ehp, low regen geared class/spec or visa versa, and balancing in between the two extremes and finding the perfect sweet spot vs each opponent is very interesting part of the fights since not everyone does the exact same amount of dps and have the same amount of ehp.
anyhow I think these two things are key to make pvp work without having to have gear sets that are perfectly balanced to d3 pvp.
1.) It should be a dueling system where if you win 3x in a row you win the match as opposed to winning best out of xxx, it really takes the randomness out of the crit/one shot builds and the cheese builds which takes a round or two to figure out and counter.
this also brings the rock,paper,scissor element back into the game which is an interesting part of d3 pvp.
it shows to a certain degree who the better player was for that match with this setup.
2.) There needs to be a timer on the rounds in a match, for example 1 round = 5 mins.
I think 5 mins is the perfect timer for a round, before it would reset and each player who would have to back to town re-spec/re-gear or do something to try and win and not be a stalemate.
This is a must-have imo, since a lot of players in d3 pvp scene now gear/spec to just try and not die and cause stalemates which honestly just ruins pvp in general.
So a match would go something like this
- first player enters town, puts on gear/spec they want to use, enters chapel
- second player enters town, does the same and enters.
- flags down, round started
- loser respec/regear if need be, re-enter
- winner respec/regear if need be, re-enter
- if stale-mate, both will respec/regear one at a time and re-enter
- first person to win 3 in a row or most wins within 30 mins is the winner of the match
Also in regards to gear-switch, I think gear-swaps should be allowed but limited to certain item slots, not entire gear.
You can have two completely extreme sets of gear that favor different scenarios but still using the same spec, some classes can do this, while others can not.
The classes that can not are at a big dis-advantage.
I believe gear-swaps during rounds should be limited to rings,amulets only, since often you can add in a SOJ and that could be the difference between you being able to down your opponent or not while at the same time it could be the difference of surviving or dying.
and MACROS? lol, that would kill this game for pvp.
The fact that you need so many different gear setups for each situation is what gives this patch longevity and will make it enjoyable longer.
your post from the link
no need to thanks
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keep it coming guys - we are installing and working out the first points of input you put the discussion here!
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ban pig of wd!
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the rules of this league is going to cause 1 hour+ long matches by ppl going stalemate specs.
need something like this for pvp to work
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7908401111?page=3#51
Just some small feedback for now: remember that we should try to implement rules which arent easy to avoid, which dont give a lot of space for cheaters.
So for example we can ban items switching during round, but there is no way to check if someone isnt switching his gear, especialy when its only about jewelry.
I also enjoy gear and skill setup possibilities in d3 for each duels or even specific enemy, but we also need to remember that rules should be realistic, as simple as possible and POSSIBLE TO ENFORCE...we need to remember that there will be plenty of bad mannered guys, cheaters or simply pvp noobs ;)
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i vote to ban SKORN (and similar 2handers) if used with DOT's (Rend, Haunt, Exploding Palm) :)
if this thing crits (and just then - and really just with a 2hander) there's almost no chance to survive, even with the following stats:
1080 AR
6423 Armor
2949 LReg
52k HP (ok this is low)
1,15 mio eHP
from a wizz PoV ... due the fact that a DOT spell doesnt trigger Illusionist AND cant be dodged (at least ive never seen me dodging it even with 26%), theres only 2 opportunities:
- RUN to avoid another DOT (u just cant run away against WotB Barbs and TR Monks)
- Deal with it and try to kill faster (IF necessaray ... WD's spirit walk away, WotB Barbs easily run away, and TR Monks easly run away aswell)
Yesterday was a bit depressing :P
Ive played MU's where it was pretty even, until my enemies took out their skorn.
After that, the match was one sided and over in "seconds" (ok, not that fast, but i think u know what i mean ^^)
Is my Idea to "childish" and i should try to get more VIT (i should do this anyway) and adopt?
or is my concern about 2handed-DOT's realistic?
Thx and regards
MoKK
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This is a must-have imo, since a lot of players in d3 pvp scene now gear/spec to just try and not die and cause stalemates which honestly just ruins pvp in general.
100% agree :)
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Here we go again...
1. Judges CANNOT check if someone change items/1 skill during round.
2. Judges CANNOT ban some skills - if they will do it everyone must record their fights with fraps.
3. Judges CANNOT make time limit rounds - if they will do it everyone must record their fights with fraps.
4. The only way is to make hp cap limit - in normal fight you can make a screenshot in town with your enemy to see how much HP you both have, and if he will have ingame more hp->screenshot and automaticlly w/o.
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4. The only way is to make hp cap limit - in normal fight you can make a screenshot in town with your enemy to see how much HP you both have, and if he will have ingame more hp->screenshot and automaticlly w/o.
thats a pretty neat idea
- screenshot of the current life before a fight
- and IF u see the life lower/higher on your enemy take a quick screenshot during the fight to see the different life.
But, call me noobish - do u see the life bar (numbers!) during a fight?
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Hmm, not sure about it:D To fast fights always:D In town 100%, I always check hp of enemy to set my tactics:P If you cannot check in-game this is uncheckable too...;/
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Hmm
I've read all the topic and based on what I read, must say that most people except Euronymous say what the would like to see, so they can win every matchup..
I think You complicate too much guys...from Barb point of view I think that...
In Barb vs WD - barb can't use Berserker and WD can't use Hex.
In Barb vs DH - barb can't use berserker and DH can't use Legacy Natalia set.
In Barb vs Monk - barb can't use Berserker and Monk have to choose either Serenity or Near Death Experience Passive (having both in this matchup is very unbalanced, I've seen Monks going astonishing DPS that pretty much 1 shoot every Barb with every attack and still having 2 extra lifes, but this need more testing to be sure)
Barb vs Wizz - i've changed my mind. Wizz DON'T need any buff, just need to learn how to use their skills.
p.s. I agree with MannerCookie..gear swap during fight shouldn't be allowed, only rings+amulets..at this point WD is immortal..he puts tank gear to survive barbs Berserker and after 15 seconds swap to DPS gear owning Barb easly...
just this 5 simple to execute changes would make games so much more interesting and shorter!
EDIT
p.s. of course Barb vs DH would work assumed that DH can't go this stupid scorpion style...bunker in turret on the island.
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@devilek
Why dh shound use legacy nat vs barb? U need only good timing to kill dh, WalkingTall, Vimer kill me easy, NoF3ar kill me as many times as i kill him, and i have much more expensive gear.
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Well I can kill legacy nat dh too...but what i meant is that it would be more balanced if dh wouldnt use leg set AND barbarian would not use berserker...both this condition at the same time...if barbarian does not use berk it can still defeat legacy nat dh, but need to have right gear...comparing prices now is not good imho, cause PvP gear is still underpriced, and it will be for a while.
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underpriced ?
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Well I can kill legacy nat dh too...but what i meant is that it would be more balanced if dh wouldnt use leg set AND barbarian would not use berserker
Balanced? U restrict my gear(4items) and ur 1 skill. maybe no use rend?:)
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dont use invincibility on barb and done!
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I really think gear swapping shouldent be allowed during duels, its ok to swap between rounds. If its allowed during the fight, someone could bind macros to example equip a rep life gear or swap 2h/shield depending on range from opponent. Like a barb could use shield+wep the when he lands stun on target he swaps to 2h before using rend.
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But how to prove somebody is swapping his gear? Some items are visible, but some are not.
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with the new patch, all items are not visible :D exept the weapon
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Well, we could always ban vanishing dye, but that doesnt solve jewelery swaping or swaping items with identical look.
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"we could always ban vanishing dye"
it would be nerf for monk. I use vanishing for all items, it makes hard for enemies to see serenity.
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oh come on :D
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Well, we could always ban vanishing dye, but that doesnt solve jewelery swaping or swaping items with identical look.
How about something along the lines of
"Players are not allowed to carry any items in their inventory except for healing potions* (and xy if you decide to allow certain items). Once per duel, a player can request his opponent to record and upload a video of his inventory. A request is only allowed if both players are in the arena and the round hasn't started (e.g. instead of "go"-"go" the round would go "go"-"show inventory please"). Upon request, players are not allowed to leave the arena until the video was uploaded and reviewed."
This would require the possibility to upload short videos for your challenges on d3cl. All players would need a free recording tool like Bandicam or even just a mobile phone/camera. They wouldn't have to run it all the time, just for the short video upon request.
What do you think of this? It should be an effective way to prevent item-switching. I also believe that players wouldn't make use of this rule too often, so the time delay should be minimal.
*maybe the inventory should be filled with white/blue items to prevent players from dropping/hiding items for the video.
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with the new patch, all items are not visible :D exept the weapon
But how to prove somebody is swapping his gear? Some items are visible, but some are not.
Well, banning swap of weapon during fight is a start.
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we need hp cap. I got a fight, against wd. he got 170k hp, I got 140k dps, buff +30%dmg -> wave of light + sss and he still on legs (without clonse, beast etc.).
this is my opinion
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with the hp cap, comes the dps cap - simple
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I really dont care if dh got 250k or 500k dps - they will "one hit" on me. If dh got less then 200k dps then I can't kill him too, why? Cause problably he got 100k+hp and some def/ress.
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hp caps and dps caps won't work since the stat sheet dps is highly incorrect for some clases while not for others, it would be a very imbalanced rule system.
hps is same thing, some classes core skills are designed around hp pools, setting a cap would limit their builds while other classes aren't affected.
I suppose there could be individual caps per class, but I mean I don't think it really matters at the end-game gear level for pvp, the fact that someone has 10k more life than u just doesn't make much difference I found.
I've recently dueled some players with extremely high pvp gear level, and all I can tell you is that, PVP in it's current state at the highest end PVP gear (not pve gear), is very heavily RNG based to make any sort of competitive scene work. This is due to the fact that at end-game gear, most players will have a balance of mitigation+dps and it really comes down to crit% since crits are the only form of damage vs each other with the current BIS items in game for pvp. Crit % is way too random to ever show a clear advantage for one person.
without the rock,paper,scissor element in the matches, it just won't work.
and also I don't even think rings/ammy changes should be allowed and I can't see how that will be moderated unless everyone is recording their duels. Only other solution could be must have empty inventory, and a ref can be requested at any point randomly during the match to come in and dump a full inventory full of blues or what not and if they aren't able to pick it up, obv their inventory wasn't empty.
even with the friendly fire, I think 2v2 is something that has potential to be good and competitive.
but 1v1 dueling at it's current state is really impossible to make work without some really dramatic game-changing rules set in place, and dramatic changes will cause different items to be BIS. I just don't think it'll attract too many players to the league if that's the case.
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well, maybe cut the thing in half and ban cc or cd ? cc will be alot easier to cut imo. i wonder how could that work
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well, maybe cut the thing in half and ban cc or cd ? cc will be alot easier to cut imo. i wonder how could that work
if we ban CC/CD, we might as well ban all the gear in game and limit it to naked fights with blue weapons.
this is ofc due to the fact that without CC/CD, players have too much mitigation/regen/skills/passives/etc. that allow them to survive, meaning ofc an endless duel.
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well cutting cd maybe, but cutting cc will lead to stacking max cd on char - resulting lucky crit could win the game .. hmm - with other lmitations cutting cc could work
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Totally agree with mannercookie here. Limits like that will only make d3cl less popular. Who wants to spend weeks of searching and billions of gold for gear with which you get raped even in public games and which is only viable in the microcosm that is d3cl?
People want to register with their #1 PvP-Dummy, #1 whatever chars and be able to duel right away with only minor adjustments.
For me, like I already mentioned before, minor adjustments would mean banning certain skills in certain match-ups.
I consider banning certain overpowered items as minor adjustments too, though right now I don't see any overpowered items yet. Biggest differences probably come from the choice of weapons (1h+shield/offhand, dual wield, 2hander), but they all have their pros/cons.
Major changes like altering equipment or destroying gear/build synergies should be the last resort and not implemented until minor changes have been proven to be insufficient.
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its all about making, a long term league .. and maybe that league will evolve into something that is worth playing .. not like now, #1pvp dummy overkill .. but it will take time, and all sugestions for now are just open minded discussion
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Limiting gear is not an option because it is not the problem. The problem is the exploit of game mechanics (built-playstyle). D3 gear, classes and skills are designed and balanced one arround the other and interfering with that will bring more problems than solutions.
Let's list the problems we actually detected so far:
- Class imbalances: WDs rule and Wizzards are bad. Skill mechanics between classes are not balanced for pvp.
- Stalemates:
- Tank vs Low DPS: one or both opponents unable to kill the other. There's no challenge here.
- Run for Regen:
- Cat vs Mouse: outrun and hide waiting for regeneration or big cooldowns. Lame tactics if it gets exploited.
- Mouse vs Mouse: this situation is the natural response to Cat vs Mouse. If you don't do this you will likely lose. Lesser lame tactics.
- 1 shot encounters: Some class-builts are favored by map positioning. First round advantage is easily held until victory. Results are extremely dependant in luck.
- Gear Bait-&-Switch: Some classes have a loose skill-gear coupling and receive extreme advantage with weapon and armor switch during encounters.
If you detect any other different problem please post its definition.
Proposed solutions:
- Class imbalances: Make a win/loss matrix with all encounters data and see what class-vs-class encounters need some kind of skill/rune limitation.
- Stalemates: More than 5 minutes rounds make no sense to me. Timeout could be a solution.
- Tank vs Low DPS: IMO this shouldn't be allowed by any means. No player should be allowed to use a pure tanking built in the first round. Referee request?
- Run for Regen: 5 minute timeout and the "mouse" opponent should lose the round.
- Cat vs Mouse: one opponent at any time should be able to request a recess and get the presence of a referee that will spot the mouse and control the timeout.
- Mouse vs Mouse: this not a real problem if there's a ref.
- 1 shot encounters: As mannercookie said, encounters should end with a streak of 3 or 4 consecutive wins or the best of 30 minutes duelling.
- Gear Bait-&-Switch: this is an honestity problem. I think built and gear should be able to switch if agreed even during the encounter but both parties should come town and check for the changes. As a solution I can only imagine to make a full blues inventory trade under request.
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Imo in WD vs DH wd should have banned spirit vessel. :)
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As highlighted by error:
There are too many cases of stalemates (either players can't kill each other due to regen or running away to regen) and 1-hit-KO encounters (most DH vs DH match-ups I have seen).
The 1-hit-KO fights are almost solely luck based since the classes involved are usually DEX heavy and thus depend on dodge and also require critical hits (which at least can be nullified with Sharpshooter). Lastly, those fights are more of a rock-paper-scissors duel, basically each DH pops smokescreen, runs to a position, and gets ready to react and snipe the other DH in their short window of visibility. If you happen to be aiming in the correct direction you win lol.
The run away for regen fights (particularly employed by Barbarians) usually results in a stalemate unless the "cat" or ranged player overextends and chases the "mouse" too far. These fights are easily stalemated by just retreating indefinitely.
I would wait until 4v4 team play is allowed or at the very least, 2v2, since it allows balance of classes by numbers. The larger the opposing forces are, the harder it is to create an unkillable tank or run away from a large group of players.
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I had an interesting duel today with a monk with pretty much top-end gear.
I really think blizzard tried to somewhat balance around BIS possible rolls on gear, so we should wait until more ppl figure out the best gearing potentials and figure out specs before starting to try and create rules for any form of competitive league.
it's just too early in the patch and pvp hasn't quite picked up yet to the point that good players are attracted to the game.
here's the clip for those interested, the second set of 10 was much less RNG dependent and felt more based off capitalizing on each other's mistakes.
clip of first set of 10 first spec from testing, http://www.twitch.tv/mannercookie/c/1960729
clip of testing specs, http://www.twitch.tv/mannercookie/c/1967567
clip of second set of 10 new spec, http://www.twitch.tv/mannercookie/c/1967615
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post that monk btag =]
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http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/23/screenshot038iq.jpg/
is it right, that I cant rejoin game between rounds for reset cd? Or I have to wait for this.. between round ofc.
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http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/23/screenshot038iq.jpg/
is it right, that I cant rejoin game between rounds for reset cd? Or I have to wait for this.. between round ofc.
To clear it up: you can rejoin games between rounds - just like it is stated in the rules.
In a particular game between the user Pino and Rex were duelling with alot of quarreling: I forbade them this because they were haggling around and being ugly so I kept them ingame. Maybe Pino figured it out wrong.
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yes, this is possible. We done duel, so it's closed.
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post that monk btag =]
king#11810
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When you will post proposition for new d3cl rules?
I hope it will not require recording whole fight.
edit:
I know that rules dev team reading this topic, so I post a few bug skills that should be forbidden:
1) rend&haunt - if DH use SS he should be "immortal and invisible" for 1,5s, but rend hit no matter i'm on SS or no. Haunt is automaticly aiming on invisible DH.
2) all damage-over-time skills - all dota ignore players dodge chance (and yes - it's a bug), so this statistic for now is senseless.
3) all dota results in all players playing tank+dota+run tactics - it shouldn't be like now. It's not a fight when both players run on each other, use dota and run back. It's not a fight, it's only luck.
4) if we ban all dotas we should nerf something in DH, because we gonna be OP, but not SS because without it DH is defenseless. Maybe make limit for dyscypline? Dunno, this problem for me is impossible to solve.
I know that developing new rules is very hard, but league cannot look like now, all running dota chickens.
Maybe ban all autoaim skills?:P
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Anyone tested Dh ShadowPower>Gloom in different difficulty settings yet? im not sure if there is a difficulty penalty atm, but im sure it will open up new builds for DH atleast, or any class using some kinda lifeleech
edit: just tested, its a kinda game breaker for me, vs WD atleast
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Anyone tested Dh ShadowPower>Gloom in different difficulty settings yet? im not sure if there is a difficulty penalty atm, but im sure it will open up new builds for DH atleast, or any class using some kinda lifeleech
edit: just tested, its a kinda game breaker for me, vs WD atleast
y, but we play at inferno;p
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y, but we play at inferno;p
[/quote]
I know, was just pointing out that any items with lifeleech on inferno is pretty much useless atm
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I lock this topic: you can continue the discussion in ruleversion 1.2