Diablo 3 Clan League - PvP forum
Duelling & Diablo 3 => Rules & development => Topic started by: predsr on March 04, 2013, 00:32:05 am
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I been hearing rumors about possible bans on this set, anyone got any offical info? i'd love to discuss what people thing about this set at the time being
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Offical info should be today or tommorow. For me this is good decision, old natalya give an advantage for ppl using it, and new players cannot buy good old natalya. There was a reason that developers changed it so we should forbidden it too. For example: look on d3cl rank, ppl with old natalya are in the best places in DH.
edit: d3cl EU rank: TOP1&2 from DH - old natalya, dc3l US rank: TOP2 DH - old natalya with 0 matches losed;)
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Old nat= low dps and EPH. If another dh know how too play vs legacy nat its easy win.
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Old nat= low dps and EPH. If another dh know how too play vs legacy nat its easy win.
So it will be not a problem to change to new natalya if old is so bad?:P
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Its a problem if other classes dont get some sort of nerf either, i dont see the top barbs having any problem with a non legacy nats DH if they are rend and running.
my main problem is that i dont have any gear to replace with, so ill probably be out the tour for a good few months :'(
About the ranking system, i dont think US has enough players/matches played to convince me that nats is OP, however what i do think is happenng is legacy nats is an advantage over non legacy DH's, so the legacy nats users are getting easy kills over the others DH, hence making thier ranking look better, but if you look at the actual stats, they are getting beat by the top monks/barbs/wd's as normal
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my main problem is that i dont have any gear to replace with, so ill probably be out the tour for a good few months :'(
Same here.
btw. IF legacy nat are so OP why i lost 36% of my duels(pedrs lost 31%) when ,,no op'' barbs, and wd's lost about 5-19%?
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I actually do not see natalya's legacy set as a problem.
You sacrifice a significant ammount of damage and health by weilding it.
I did not yet encounter any duel were the natalya's wrath is the key to winning a matchup.
I myself own the #2 natalya wrath setup in europe and I have tested it towards the new set quite alot.
Most of the time I actually prefer weilding the new set with 70-90 diceplin beause it is very rare that you encounter a diceplin problem.
Your damage output yet close to double and you are able to use this to a different advnatage than just spamming smoke scren.
Both sets are legitimate options and offers a diversity in prefered playstyle.
I do not think it is a good idea to ban out items that players have invested alot of effort into and enjoy the playstyle around it.
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In rules legacy not get ban:) so we can close topic;p
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I've got also some decent legacy nat gear, however right now im seriously considering to buy new nat + mempo for pvp.
If someone tells that it give so much advantage, he probably never played with legacy nat. It is good @ ava, when 1-2 shot decide of win.
But really, in comparsion to new set, about ~25-35% life and ~30% damage loss isn't that op.
If somebody want to figure out, PM Me bt, I will show the difference.
For me banning this set doesn't make sense..
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I'm a non-legacy nat DH and I have been doing fairly well in the America's PVP league. The only uses I have for a legacy set would be to face super tanky Barbarians or tanky legacy nat DH (very few of these) as those duels last so long I can run out of discipline. Against other targets, I usually have enough max discipline coupled with a use of preparation that I wouldn't benefit from the discipline regeneration anyways. If the rules changed to not allow cooldowns of skills between kills, then legacy nat DH would have a HUGE advantage, but with preparation allowed to reset, I don't notice a problem usually.
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But really, in comparsion to new set, about ~25-35% life and ~30% damage loss isn't that op.
If somebody want to figure out, PM Me bt, I will show the difference.
For me banning this set doesn't make sense..
Ye, it's funny that legacy nat users says "it's not so good", "we are losing 30% life and 30% dmg", "banning it is senseless" so pls tell me:
WHY the hell you are using it? If it DON'T give an advantage in fight you all will be using new nat, not legacy set.
This is only bullshit, so pls stop and say the truth: you had luck to buy good legacy set a few months ago and new players are unable to buy equal set, so we must run with new nat or bad legacy nat from AH, and we are affected in rules by legacy nat users because barbs&wd cry that with new rules they will not have chance with DH with legacy nat.
If new nat is better you all will use it, and you use legacy nat so stop talking how much life and dps you losing;]
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I think you got the wrong idea GREEN,legacy nats promotes a totaly different style of play, another problem is that the ban of this set will force us to buy 4 new peices of gear, which i dont think i can buy in a quick amount of time, and ive no intrest in playing without high level gear (and i dont see how im going to stand a chance vs top level/geared barbs using non legacy - but thats pretty bias because ive not actuly tested a high tier non legacy stat so thats probably BS itself ;)
There was no 'luck' in buying any of the items, i got most of mine from diabloprogress and offer guys whos got nice sets laying around doing nothing, if you have the gold to do so. The thing with nats set is that you need it to be top level rolls, anything else is basicly crap, and even then you need your offgear to be very high level to support your set
I maybe wrong, but you seem you want this set banned? id like to know why, what advantages do you exactly see from having this set
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I maybe wrong, but you seem you want this set banned? id like to know why, what advantages do you exactly see from having this set
No I don't want ban of this set. I just want to set different rules against barbs with legacy and non-legacy nat. You can lend from any of your friends new nat and try to challenge any barb - it's senseless with equally geared barb, and they don't want to ban their hp regen passive because they cannot handle dh with legacy nat. As you know that force me to buy old legacy nat and use 2 sets, but league should force ppl to search for gear removed from game drop.
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Imo people are asking for changes way too soon, theres not been enough testing atm, people are having sub 10 duels and basing thier opinions off those stats, people need to realise that you may need to change tacs, gear and skills, i cant rmeber how long this league has been going on for, but its taken all that time and testing to come up with the new proposed rules, so i still think the opinions are way to early for the moment :)
I have no proposed changes vs barbs yet using legacy nat, played alot of rounds yesterday and there was no real clear winner yet, but still - way too early and too less duels/variety to make any real opinions
I wish i had some friends that would lend me gear :'( and id need very high level gear and trusting someone on the internet with gear like that is just not a viable thing to do these days
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people are having sub 10 duels and basing thier opinions off those stats
I have 105 league duels played, and about 30-40 with barbs so believe me when i'm saying that without legacy nat dueling against barb is senseless now:)
Lilith@ can you post how much will cost legacy set like yours?
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I got the new Nat Set, and i am fighting a lot of Barbarians. If you look @ my profile, i got not the absolutely top gear, but it´s still far away from average. Im sure that i am not as good as Lilith or Mysticalz @ the moment, and i got to practice a lot more....but, i only can agree with Green here.
The duels vs Barbs (Painsup, Sprint, Rend, Chicken, Regenerate) <--- Standart style nowadays, is just making me mad.
When i hit them hard, they just sprint away and regenerate, i am forced to chase them and waste all my discipline to get a "Maybe" kill, if i can´t kill him...he just fucks me up, coz im out of disci. Ofcourse i just can say "Fuck you", i don´t chase you, but then he will everytime come out back behind the walls with full hp, and the game starts again. The duel lasts so long, till he lands 2 lucky rends, for the cost of all my 158 discipline = Dead.Dead. I would very appreciate if the experienced non legacy DH´s give me information ( How to) about their dominating vs Barbarians, i am allways willing to learn.
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I would very appreciate if the experienced non legacy DH´s give me information ( How to) about their dominating vs Barbarians, i am allways willing to learn.
I think only Captain win some matches with good barbs with new nat, but im not sure if he didnt have old nat for barbs duels.
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If you look @Captains statistics, he lost the most of the last vs Barb duels.
And captain, is absolutely highend geared. His dmg ist just retarded.
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But really, in comparsion to new set, about ~25-35% life and ~30% damage loss isn't that op.
If somebody want to figure out, PM Me bt, I will show the difference.
For me banning this set doesn't make sense..
Ye, it's funny that legacy nat users says "it's not so good", "we are losing 30% life and 30% dmg", "banning it is senseless" so pls tell me:
WHY the hell you are using it? If it DON'T give an advantage in fight you all will be using new nat, not legacy set.
This is only bullshit, so pls stop and say the truth: you had luck to buy good legacy set a few months ago and new players are unable to buy equal set, so we must run with new nat or bad legacy nat from AH, and we are affected in rules by legacy nat users because barbs&wd cry that with new rules they will not have chance with DH with legacy nat.
If new nat is better you all will use it, and you use legacy nat so stop talking how much life and dps you losing;]
Why?
Cause i'm in possession of this set since 03 (only improved shoes). Unfortunately prices of legacy nat are still going down. I'm 88 paragon lvl at this moment, so it make quicker farm than new nat.
Have got several expenses before buying new nat set, so maybe @ 100 paragon I will set legacy and buy new one /eventually buy new one w/o selling old/. Btw, it should not be your business why i'm using it. I still dont think that legacy have THAT advantage in pvp.
Its rather obvious that the people who use legacy nat will be against banning it.
You probably got big whips from some 03 nat dh, and thats why you're mad right now =]
Try to farm some gold, and check legacy prices - they aren't that expensive!
And above all im feeling fakin unique using it and like ninja style (still loosing 30% life and 30% dps).
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I got the new Nat Set, and i am fighting a lot of Barbarians. If you look @ my profile, i got not the absolutely top gear, but it´s still far away from average. Im sure that i am not as good as Lilith or Mysticalz @ the moment, and i got to practice a lot more....but, i only can agree with Green here.
The duels vs Barbs (Painsup, Sprint, Rend, Chicken, Regenerate) <--- Standart style nowadays, is just making me mad.
When i hit them hard, they just sprint away and regenerate, i am forced to chase them and waste all my discipline to get a "Maybe" kill, if i can´t kill him...he just fucks me up, coz im out of disci. Ofcourse i just can say "Fuck you", i don´t chase you, but then he will everytime come out back behind the walls with full hp, and the game starts again. The duel lasts so long, till he lands 2 lucky rends, for the cost of all my 158 discipline = Dead.Dead. I would very appreciate if the experienced non legacy DH´s give me information ( How to) about their dominating vs Barbarians, i am allways willing to learn.
I'm legacy nat user but u can try my build:
Hungering Arrow - Devouring Arrow
Impale - Chemical Burn
Vault - Tumble
Smoke Screen - Lingering Fog
Preparation - Battle Scars
Marked for Death - Mortal Enemy or Fan of Knives - Fan of Daggers
Thrill of the Hunt
Sharpshooter
Tactical Advantage
With this build i can win with every barb, but i feel blood lust when i see them near to death and rush in melee range^^
Tactics
1. 24ms
2. Try to use trill of hunt when charge and jump is on cooldown
3. Run away when he use ignore pain.
4. try to use vault, not smoke screen most of time.
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I think that banning gear is a mistake, and it will cause nothing but rage and trouble. Don't mess with people's choices.
That said, I don't see Legacy nat as a problem. Its a huge EHP loss.
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on paper its an big EHP loss, but in reality the main loss is the DPS. You have shitloads of more disc, which in thoery = EHP, thats the way i look at it anyway
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I don't care about a DH's discipline because there will always be a gap between your SS for me to Haunt you. So it is both a EHP and DPS loss versus a WD. And thats why DHs fail so badly versus good WDs.
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You will always be able to get haunt, but with legacy set you can use Smokescreen more often to mig damage
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@GREEN2172
I think it is really funny. I read almost everything of these forum the last days and there is one thing about you.
IN EVERY TOPIC talking about legacy nats or balancing the league YOU ARE THE ONLY GUY that is so massive against legacy nats and you write to all topics with: BAN IT, WOULD BE AWESOME, FIXES PROBLEMS, ETC many times.
Why dont you just let legacy users be legacy users... they probably paid much to get one and if u think its so good you can save money and get one, too. There are so many on the AH every day! But there arent even many DHS using it here... Many use new Nats and do even better then guys with the old one. There is pros and cons everywhere!
But i think nobody should be forced to buy other items in this league EVER because some of us played hundreds of hours to get what we have and some of us probably paid real money, too.
Balancing must go via spells and other rules.
Most people in these forums here are fine with legacy nats but i feel you are the only guy that wants it banned so hard.
Its everyones own decision: Buy one on the ah or use new nats or even Mempo-Build as dh.
Also you cant tell a Barb that paid billions of gold for PVP Gear (maybe just as legacy dh) to not buy high hp gear or lifereg gear like some of the top barbs.
Just my 2cents lol...
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YOU ARE THE ONLY GUY that is so massive against legacy nats
Read what many ppl wrote in ruleversion topic: they don't want to ban their skills vs DH because DH can kite them all the time BUT this is ONLY about legacy nats. So I'm not only one who complain 'bout it.
Why dont you just let legacy users be legacy users... they probably paid much to get one and if u think its so good you can save money and get one, too. There are so many on the AH every day!
As I posted in ruleversion thread you cannot buy endgame legacy nat because ppl who have it don't want to sell it, you can go back there and check screenshoots. So you want to force all new nat users to buy average legacy nat? As you said " there arent even many DHS using it", so in your opinion most of DH with new nats must be forced to spend money or less legacy nat users to buy new? Briliant idea. And as I said many times: you cannot buy good set because it doesn't drop anymore. Blizz changed this set because it was OP and you are abusing now fact that Blizz didnt removed it from game.
Many use new Nats and do even better then guys with the old one. There is pros and cons everywhere!
Only DH from rank:
1. old nat.
2. new nat (me).
3. new nat.
4. old nat.
I don't see any problem with rules for DH vs Wizz or DH vs Monk, but legacy nat give you a big advantage against Barbs and non-legacy DH, and that's problem because they don't want to ban their OP skills because they gonna lose with legacy nat users, but non-legacy don't have chance without balancing it. I don't want to ban this set, i just want 2 different type of rules for legacy and non-legacy DH. I have both sets, and with cheapets legacy set on AH (20kk for all) I have 1000% more chance against barbs and other DH than with my new nat which cost a lot more. Did you played 100+ duels with both sets? If no it's EOT for me.
But i think nobody should be forced to buy other items in this league EVER because some of us played hundreds of hours to get what we have and some of us probably paid real money, too.
hehehe, so a few legacy users cannot be forced to buy new set, but most of DH must be forced to buy legacy?:) As I said: different type of rules for legacy and non-legacy DH will solve this problem.
Balancing must go via spells and other rules.
I agree.
Most people in these forums here are fine with legacy nats but i feel you are the only guy that wants it banned so hard.
Its everyones own decision: Buy one on the ah or use new nats or even Mempo-Build as dh.
Also you cant tell a Barb that paid billions of gold for PVP Gear (maybe just as legacy dh) to not buy high hp gear or lifereg gear like some of the top barbs.
Just my 2cents lol...
Go up and read my arguments:) I dont want to ban any gear, just want to set different rules, and if you don;t understand it buy legacy and non legacy sets, go and test it against all classes. I made it and I;m sure that we cannot have 1 set of rules against DH.
edit: just checked and I'm not suprised you defend this set as one of legacy set users;)
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After all these so call tests, would be nice to see what you actuly think needs changing for legacy users
And not being able to buy the higher end stuff is BS, i got two of the items within the last 2 weeks, 3 with last month
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After all these so call tests, would be nice to see what you actuly think needs changing for legacy users
Simple: you can kite barb all the time and use SS because of your dysc regen - non legacy users not. So we must change something what will give non-legacy users any chance, for example banning sprint (barb still can take us with jump or spear skill etc.) or banning inspiring presence to prove that equally geared non legacy DH and barb can kill each other. For now there is no way to kill good barb with non-legacy set.
In non-legacy DH vs legacy DH duel we must make something to balance dyscypline, because now non-legacy DH cannot kill running&hiding legacy DH, because we just don't have enough dyscy to hide in SS and you have. Dunno how solve this problem, maybe with banning preparation in legacy DH.
Predsr just buy any non-legacy set and try to play some matches, because you don't know problems of the other side-my side.
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Atm i cant afford any non-legacy set, if i was gonna do tests with some, id only do with with the very high end stuff to get more of a fair test
Your right i dont know the problems of your side, thats why im asking for suggestion on what you think would balance the matches out
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Your right i dont know the problems of your side, thats why im asking for suggestion on what you think would balance the matches out
We both know that we will die in face to face situation with good barb dont matter what set we have. The problem is you can hit&run all the time, we can hit&run maybe 30 seconds. With non-legacy DH barb should have banned big hp regeneration or sprint.
The same problem is with legacy DH vs non-legacy DH - we both can kill each other with 1-2 shoots, but non-legacy just dont have dyscypline after 10-15 seconds of fight and he die. The only way to face legacy dh without legacy set is to make full tank with 40k dps for gear worth 10b or more (like emmet). In this duel we should make something to balance dysc (banning preparation in legacy DH?) or banning speed passive in legacy DH (to forbid their hit&run tactics until enemy dont have dyscypline).
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Your right i dont know the problems of your side, thats why im asking for suggestion on what you think would balance the matches out
We both know that we will die in face to face situation with good barb dont matter what set we have. The problem is you can hit&run all the time, we can hit&run maybe 30 seconds. With non-legacy DH barb should have banned big hp regeneration or sprint.
The same problem is with legacy DH vs non-legacy DH - we both can kill each other with 1-2 shoots, but non-legacy just dont have dyscypline after 10-15 seconds of fight and he die. The only way to face legacy dh without legacy set is to make full tank with 40k dps for gear worth 10b or more (like emmet). In this duel we should make something to balance dysc (banning preparation in legacy DH?) or banning speed passive in legacy DH (to forbid their hit&run tactics until enemy dont have dyscypline).
if you forbid hit and run tactics until enemy has reged up the disc its a big advantage for new nats users because they have more dmg and more ehp and still the same amount of disc comparing to legacy users... lol bad idea...
its as if u play oldnat without discregen vs newnat!
and for the example vs barb... its just ... ban inspiring presence for new nats users... EDIT: new nats users or even mempo users do average 90k more dmg UNBUFFED what also helps ALOT in killing high hp barbs comparing to oldnats users...
for old nats vs new nats... maybeeeee ban tactical advantage... but still if u have a decent disc pool with like 60-70 u wont run out of disc ... as many ppl wrote in rules topic that actually play new nats and dont want oldnats ban..
i use both sets old and new one(bad new one) and in some situations even new one is better... but MOST ppl cant afford both with good stats and the ones that use old one now cant just buy new ones if it gets banned...
the ones with new ones ofc can keep using it because it wont ever get banned... so simple: dont ban any of them because u cant force ppl to buy new items they farmed hundreds of hours for or spend real money!
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in my humble opinion all Legacy items should be banned from the league. it just seems common sense to me if an item was removed from the loot tables then it is no longer mean to be used.
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It wasnt removed because it was too strong, it was removed because the item got upgraded ilvl's
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Just make 2 different ruling for DH and Legacy DH as if they were 2 different class.
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I know this has been discussed but I would like to know the status of this topic. Currently, I don't think I can win (as a non-legacy DH) against a legacy DH with medium-high end gear (enough to not get 1shot) since they can just force me to burn discipline rapidly and kill me when I run out. Have any non-legacy DH been able to compete with legacy DH without a discipline problem? This is the one match up I know I will lose with great certainty if nothing is done!
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Have any non-legacy DH been able to compete with legacy DH without a discipline problem?
Captain. He had ~79 dyscypline, and he managed very well his cd of preparation. I losed vs him with 4b legacy set, but to be honest he is just better player, better aiming, tactics etc.
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I retract my legacy Natalya problem since I went roughly even with Myst in the VC tournament (was 3:2 Myst). I now have a problem with 4 piece Blackthorne DH (with 50B+ gear) lol. Also, I am having issues with overly tanky WDs either the kind that have 200k+ hp (like Chucknorris) or 100k+ hp with elite damage taken -25%+ and some ranged damage reduction (like Ender and Asmodai). It really bugs me that defensive play is the meta-game now.
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I retract my legacy Natalya problem since I went roughly even with Myst in the VC tournament (was 3:2 Myst). I now have a problem with 4 piece Blackthorne DH (with 50B+ gear) lol. Also, I am having issues with overly tanky WDs either the kind that have 200k+ hp (like Chucknorris) or 100k+ hp with elite damage taken -25%+ and some ranged damage reduction (like Ender and Asmodai). It really bugs me that defensive play is the meta-game now.
The WD that won that tournament posted some vids:
Ender vs. Zee and Mystical
http://www.twitch.tv/gardettos/b/399858417
http://www.twitch.tv/gardettos/b/399875756
The guy has max. 1b gear and isn't even using his Horrify most of the time and beats two of the top server DHs :D
Just shows you how OP WD is vs. DH.
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Yeah and WD more OP now with better Fire Bats and Blood Ritual. I think the game is just uneven now lol.
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The biggest problem is the automatic hitting skill haunt...
This wd just runs around like a gay, and casts in all directions haunt...no need brain, no need aim, no need any skill, just press 1 button and be glad.
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totaly agree wd is gotten big buff. and haunt needs its hit box made small for more aimed shots.
However I got a chance to test against the dh strat I mentioned and it is still very effective vs new wd. imo the current builds you use against me and most dh use vs wd are a big mistake and you can significantly improve your chances by using better build. so suggest u experiment. after the big prize pool tourney I will make a post about pvp effective pvp strats for classes that need some help figuring it out. imo dh has potential to = wd and monk has potential to > wd.
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Stop being so selfish and just post it already. You are holding back information that supposedly helps classes for months now because of some tourney with a potential prize of what, $50? Bullshit.
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I think thats a big Bullshit, right Euronymous.
This would mean that all the Dh´s out there are stupid, and couldn´t figure out in thousands of duels how to deal with WD´s.
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Please don't tell me the strategy is something silly like going full tank DH and kiting between Aid Station Sentries with Brooding, that is just silly. Also, I know of several interesting tactics but they don't work very effectively:
Spike Trap - Sticky Trap the dogs -> Fan of Knives. Doesn't work when the dogs have so much EHP they survive critical Fan of Knives and the WD can just dismiss the dogs and resummon them. Also, the AoE range is rather limited with a running WD.
Spike Trap - Echoing Blast with Caltrops - Torturous Ground. Requires legacy Natalya's with MASSIVE discipline, the idea is to vault into the WD, spam Smokescreen, Caltrops, and Spike Traps to keep the WD snared. Doesn't work if the WD is so tanky the DH runs out of discipline before that occurs. Furthermore, it leaves the DH open with no discipline, also the 0.5 second windows between Smokescreens can get the DH into serious trouble with Fire Bats and Spirit Barrage.
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a rapid fire with a stun seems to be effective sometimes, not tested for a long time tho