Diablo 3 Clan League - PvP forum
Duelling & Diablo 3 => Rules & development => Topic started by: Wittster on March 09, 2013, 00:24:05 am
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Hello there,
I'd like to start a separate topic to discuss the balance of this particular matchup. As a Monk, I feel like I am at a serious disadvantage here, given equal gear, but it is completely possible that I'm just being outplayed or biased towards my own class so I'd like other opinions and ideas to balance this matchup even more.
Some of my observations:
- If I can't 1-shot the DH, I can't kill him at all since he heals too fast.
- If the DH plays carefully, I can never ever reach him
I think either of these points alone would be fine, but combined, it's just too much and I would propose either of points below as a solution:
- cap hp at lets say 60k for DH and WD, 100k for all others.
- ban Vault
Are these nerfs too much? Would any other changes be better?
Discuss :)
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if you cant catch the Dh, I think your being outplayed, try use a playstyle which forces them to come to you, i.e pillar hugging
I think a decent change would be to not allow the use of SharpShooter for the DH
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i mean pillar hugging shouldn't have to be the answer. The rules shouldn't promote passive play as the only viable option to win a particular matchup.
Banning Sharpshooter is a nice start :)
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The problem is that a DH can play a style where he can never get hit (if hes using legacy your screwed)
Pillar hugging shouldnt have to be an answer i agree, however i dont think hes gonna wait for you to come out either, they can still Smokescreen in and out however it does force them to be in range for that kill sometimes
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Right, and that's ok I think. DH shouldn't get hit by melee unless he makes a mistake. The problem is that he can make mistakes and take hits but can still escape and regen afterwards.
Do you think banning Sharpshooter alone is enough to balance the matchup?
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Hes the problem i see with sharpshooter vs monks atm;
My first impale will be 100% crit, even if you dodge, the rune 'chemical burn' the DoT, will still apply and it will be a crit dot, worst part is, the 100% crit buff will not be reset(i think?), so i can keep firing these dot crits that do huge dmg
Playing with sharpshooter, the basic tac is hit and run, let the dots do the work, eventualy grinding down his hp to zero
Now that i look at it, maybe sharpshooter is not the problem, but possibly banning the rune 'chemical burn' with imaple
Have you played both legacy and non-legacy Dh's? i use legacy and hit and run is the tac i use, and i abuse the shit out of vault since its almost free disc, not sure how a normal DH would go about it
EDIT: sharpshooter makes the rounds quicker for the DH, thats probably all, but then again, longer rounds should maybe lead to the monk catching the DH more quicker and allow the monk to 'chase'
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You're right, Sharpshooter is insanely strong in pvp.
I've played against many Legacy DH's and haven't really had trouble with any of them. For me a DH with very high ehp is much much harder.
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Another problem is that if the DH simply dodges a hit for the .5 seconds out of smokescreen, all that effort is wasted. Those windows are few and far in-between and if you get RNG dodged twice in a row you're bound to lose. There's no way to heal against crit chemical burn over and over either.
If a DH can RNG dodge all of monks skills, including the only CC, blinding flash, I think getting rid of chemical burn would be the best choice to even the matchup as far as actually landing skills go. It's unfair for monks to have the roll the dice on every skill and CC while the DH gets guaranteed DoT crits from afar.
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I fighting agains dh many times. I won match only if dh was totally newbies.. he didnt using vault and/or ss like the others one.
What I mean. If dh got a bit skill (know how to using vault / ss and snapshooting) I can win a round only with a bit luck, but it is really hard to win all the match.
Monk is easy target while he running away. Monk can kill him only if dh make a mistake, with wave of light or ss.
How I play agains them? defense and camp... the only one way to win is bring him to us with camp on the other side of the wall or smth like that, when he showing use wave of light and get a luck to hit him one shot crit. Or catch it while running away from us with sss. Serenity and timing is the "win or lose".
Sorry but dh is stronger than monk.
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I fully agree that DH is in a much better position in a fight vs Monk. They naturally have high dodge and in combination that the monk only has dodgeable targeted skills means that the monks needs to successfully do 3 things in a .5 sec window: 1) get in melee range, 2) be able to target the DH and activate the skill (in time) 3) hope that his one opportunity to attack is not dodged.
The only way to get close is dash (25 spirit) and all attacks worthwhile use at least 40 spirit with a spirit pool of 250 (with a passive). This in combination that monks only way to regen spirit is using items and passives to increase their innate regen from 0 to up to 12per sec. Furthermore, monks cannot really consistently run from a DH to regen means that we have up to 3 chances to kill the DH before we are sitting ducks.
Regarding possible ways to balance, I see 2 options. disallow chemical burn or battle scars. without battle scars we would be able to kill DH with 2 lucky dashes. Without chemical burn, we buy some time for additional opportunities to hit the DH.
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Also I would like to add that Dash while looking quite strong on paper misses a lot due to latency in combination that DH never stand still but run with much increased move speed (which they should^^). I use Dash in all of my setups and I would think that I am quite practiced with it but against DH my miss rate is at around 50% where I only dash a minimal distance wasting mana.
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Thanks a lot for the input guys! It seems everyone agrees that DH has too much of an edge here and it seems like banning Chemical Burn in this matchup will level the playing field quite a bit so I will propose this for the new rule set due tomorrow.
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If u ban blind or companion u can ban chemical burn.
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If u ban blind or companion u can ban chemical burn.
ive had no problems with these skills so far
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@predsr
Blind works when ss is lunched so its buged like ss+chemical burn. Companion+this stupid map=exploit walls etc.
Guys if u argue that chemical burn should be nerfed cose it have bad mechanic we should ban all DoT skills. IMO monk vs DH is good.
Me vs Sin:
0-5
2-5
5-4
Me vs Thomas
0-5
2-5
4-5
Me vs Psykes
5-4
5-4
If dh won all the time 5-0, 5-1 there will be some nerf.
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Im pretty sure i can 5-0 any monk atm
But i think a ban in Sharpshooter will be a 'smaller' nerf
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Win 5-0 with any monk? With what build?
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any build that uses ShSh+chem burn/vault/boar
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I wouldn't even bother with boar; monks turn him into salami with a Wave of Light. I usually use the following against monk:
Evasive Fire - Covering Fire
Impale - Chemical Burn
Companion - Bat Familiar
Smokescreen - Lingering Fog
Vault - Tumble
Preparation - Battle Scars
Tactical Advantage
Sharpshooter
Steady Aim (or Perfectionist if the Monk is lower DPS)
I have had zero problems with this build against monks and I never need to change skills or playstyle; it always works.
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I wouldn't even bother with boar; monks turn him into salami with a Wave of Light. I usually use the following against monk:
Evasive Fire - Covering Fire
Impale - Chemical Burn
Companion - Bat Familiar
Smokescreen - Lingering Fog
Vault - Tumble
Preparation - Battle Scars
Tactical Advantage
Sharpshooter
Steady Aim (or Perfectionist if the Monk is lower DPS)
I have had zero problems with this build against monks and I never need to change skills or playstyle; it always works.
How u fight if monk camp in corner? I use hail of knifes(20 range) and than archery>steady Aim becouse companion protect him from long range impale.
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I wouldn't even bother with boar; monks turn him into salami with a Wave of Light. I usually use the following against monk:
Evasive Fire - Covering Fire
Impale - Chemical Burn
Companion - Bat Familiar
Smokescreen - Lingering Fog
Vault - Tumble
Preparation - Battle Scars
Tactical Advantage
Sharpshooter
Steady Aim (or Perfectionist if the Monk is lower DPS)
I have had zero problems with this build against monks and I never need to change skills or playstyle; it always works.
How u fight if monk camp in corner? I use hail of knifes(20 range) and than archery>steady Aim becouse companion protect him from long range impale.
Can you invite Sin/Thomas to this thread?
I want to learn what they are doing against you top DHs.
DHs are... definitely the hardest to deal with.
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Maybe im noob and don't know how to play vs monk?:D:D
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In my opinion, the best option a Monk has against a DH is Wave of Light - Explosive Light. The trick is to listen to when a DH uses smokescreen, then wait 1-1.5 seconds, then press Wave of Light. Due to the travel time of the wave, you might actually catch the DH if they are in range and 1-shot them. The problem with this is that:
A) it assumes you have really good timing
B) it assumes the DH is near or in a straight line from you
C) it assumes the waves which go in several directions actually go in the direction of the DH
D) it assumes you hit the DH through their dodge chance
E) it assumes you critically hit the DH with your critical hit chance
Once you get past all those assumptions, it is quite easy to kill a DH lol! You can also try to use blinding flash but again, it is luck based and highly dependent on if the DH stays near you while invisible.
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The boar is mostly there for them to micro the wrong target, and the 15% all res is decent also.
For monks camping in corners, SS off-screen, snipe, and vault the fuck out :D
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In my opinion, the best option a Monk has against a DH is Wave of Light - Explosive Light. The trick is to listen to when a DH uses smokescreen, then wait 1-1.5 seconds, then press Wave of Light. Due to the travel time of the wave, you might actually catch the DH if they are in range and 1-shot them. The problem with this is that:
A) it assumes you have really good timing
B) it assumes the DH is near or in a straight line from you
C) it assumes the waves which go in several directions actually go in the direction of the DH
D) it assumes you hit the DH through their dodge chance
E) it assumes you critically hit the DH with your critical hit chance
Once you get past all those assumptions, it is quite easy to kill a DH lol! You can also try to use blinding flash but again, it is luck based and highly dependent on if the DH stays near you while invisible.
The best option is to actually use SSS teleport rune and teleport on top of where you think they'll be after smokescreen ends and pray they don't double dodge.
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For me this duel is balanced too if monk use his companion. If not... this is his problem:P Only 1 monk that i have still problems is SIN - cannot take him from long distance because of his companion and I must go close. He have enough hp&ress to hold my 3 dodged-dota and after that I'm out of dyscypline without legacy nat so i'm dead:P
If you have problems guys try companion and after that we can think about possibly nerfs. And don't talk about nerfs if you have 50k hp against DH:P
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For me this duel is balanced too if monk use his companion. If not... this is his problem:P Only 1 monk that i have still problems is SIN - cannot take him from long distance because of his companion and I must go close. He have enough hp&ress to hold my 3 dodged-dota and after that I'm out of dyscypline without legacy nat so i'm dead:P
If you have problems guys try companion and after that we can think about possibly nerfs. And don't talk about nerfs if you have 50k hp against DH:P
Does SIN use any mantra?
Is his build like this?
blind/serenity/ally/dashing/FoT/sss?
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For me this duel is balanced too if monk use his companion. If not... this is his problem:P Only 1 monk that i have still problems is SIN - cannot take him from long distance because of his companion and I must go close. He have enough hp&ress to hold my 3 dodged-dota and after that I'm out of dyscypline without legacy nat so i'm dead:P
If you have problems guys try companion and after that we can think about possibly nerfs. And don't talk about nerfs if you have 50k hp against DH:P
If you use boar, it'll counter his pet completely. Then you'll have the upper hand 100% of the time.
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For me this duel is balanced too if monk use his companion. If not... this is his problem:P Only 1 monk that i have still problems is SIN - cannot take him from long distance because of his companion and I must go close. He have enough hp&ress to hold my 3 dodged-dota and after that I'm out of dyscypline without legacy nat so i'm dead:P
If you have problems guys try companion and after that we can think about possibly nerfs. And don't talk about nerfs if you have 50k hp against DH:P
So u telling us, if we dont have hp/ress ehp for 3 dogded dot etc. then we just "unskilled" ? I think it's wrong way...
I using companion, so what? I can take 1, sometimes 2 shot (crit dot will always kill me) with 75k hp. So I need 150k against dh and u telling it is balanced? Cause u are dh ofc ;]
I got only 936k ehp and I all the time loosing with dh 5-1 / 5-2. only if wave of light got critical undoged lucky strike hit! or if the dh came too close to me (his mistake).
dont tell me that this duel is balanced because there is one monk who can beat you.
a few mins ago I lose twice with two different dh's. with my companion they got no problem... the only one problem is in chemical burn. They got "high" crit chance and dmg ofc. if I got shot with it I got less than 2 sec for serenity. what if it on cd? my problem yes? ok... but hey...
if the monk had no cd on serenity .... let's theorize:
DH can shooting all the time chemical burn with no cd - this skill can one shot more than 99% of monks.
Monk can shooting wave of light with no cd - much more cost than chemical burn and yes, this skill can one shot more than 90% dh's
dh can come to you with ss - shot - ss and gone all in less then 1 sec sometimes. Monks cant do anythink like that... we need camp for dh, when ss gone we need to hit wave of light before they do this, ofc we using serenity. OMG we miss huehue... now we have to wait 20 sec cd.. they will kill us twenty times :) huehue
seriously... sorry for my low end english but we need to balance this.
Guys, the rulez are for top players like sin? we got 3 monks in top20. we need rulez for them, or for rest of league? -,-
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You are right. Maybe it will be balanced, but to avoid abusing dodge chance we need to make dodge cap, for example 60-70%. Iria posted in rule thread link to monk with 98%+ dodge chance - with it DH without chemical burn is 100% dead no matter what eq he have.
I admit that now DH > Monk and we must do something with it.
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Whats the EHP of this monk with this amount of dodge? anyone got a battletag?
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http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7978878101
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/lSeraphiml-1972/hero/3116643
http://postimage.org/image/lf542rcvj/
http://postimage.org/image/87cg281vb/
http://postimage.org/image/syy74t627
Without buffs from other skills 80% dodge. Dunno if he is wearing now PvP set.
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Im pretty sure we would 1shot this guy :) providing hes 99% dodge ofc ^^
+ hes getting stacking dodge from skills, which i doubt they could pull off
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Cap dodge at 70% for monk and take away chemical burn. I'm cool with that.
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Cap dodge at 70% for monk and take away chemical burn. I'm cool with that.
the monk in question stacked all kinds of buffs that only last a few seconds when they proc. There's no way this build is viable in pvp and even if someone does use it, the 100% bock only lasts like a second. He'll have at best around 70% base dodge and sacrifices a ton of much better spells to get there.
I saw some objections to banning Chemical Burn in other threads but haven't seen any proper argumentation or other ways to balance this matchup which at the moment is almost an auto-loss for monks.
Any more ideas?
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Any more ideas?
Only banning sharpshooter. Without sharpshooter we don't have 100% crit shot and 100% crit first dota (if you dodge) so monk will be able to tank a few shoots from impale with chemical burn, if he dodge non-crit dota will not take so much dmg. Other + of banning Ssharpshooter is that DH build for max cd, no cc+cd will mean nothing in this matchup. We will have less dmg and we will be unable to kill Monk in one rush. What are other +? We can shoot 1-2 impale on Smoke and with sharpshooter it was enough to force monk to use serenity (is this name of that immortal skill? Dunno in english), but without sharpshooter we cannot force you to use serenity in first rush, so we must make 2-3 rushes (or more, depends on dps) to force monk to use serenity, and after that we need another 2-3 rushes without sharpshooter to kill you when you have serenity on CD.
Pluses:
- longer fights
- more skill-based, because if DH will make 1 mistake in one of 4-6 rushes he's dead,
- not banning chemical burn will not make this fight lucky-based,
- good skilled monk have more opportunity to kill DH.
Ofc. this solution will not help any monks with 50-60k hp and 300-400 ress, but with good monks with good DPS-EHP balance it gonna be best solution.
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Couple of more suggestions that are worthy to test in my opinion. They all would somehow reduce the movement advantage of DH:
- smokescreen no 1.5s rune or no runes at all
and/or
- vault no tumble rune or no runes at all
and/or
- no tactical advantage
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- smokescreen no 1.5s rune or no runes at all
and/or
- vault no tumble rune or no runes at all
and/or
- no tactical advantage
You mean without banning sharpshooter and chemical burn?
1. smokescreen no 1.5s rune or no runes at all - maybe, this will give the same like banning Sharpshooter - Monk will have more opportunity to kill DH.
2. vault no tumble rune or no runes at all - it will give nothing, DH can run fast on SS, it just consume more dyscypline, but for legacy DH it's not a problem.
3. no tactical advantage - no, no, no! This passive is core skill of DH - our class depends on 4 things: mobility, dps, smoke and dysc pool. Without tactical advantage whole DH class is broken in PvP, we cannot make fast rush, we cannot run, we cannot avoid enemy skills, we cannot do anything.
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Yeah that's what I thought too, I just wanted to list all the movement options. 1.5s smokescreen is probably the only one that makes sense, vault is basically no nerf and tactical advantage is way too much.
Banning sharpshooter makes a lot of sense though, the mechanic with bleed impale is broken. Dodging impale and getting the bleed is already stupid and hopefully Blizz will do something about it in the future. Dodging impale and then getting a guaranteed crit bleed that doesn't reset sharpshooter is even worse and extremely op.
On the other hand, by banning the bleed rune you get rid of both "bugs". It needs more testing, find us/yourself some Monks and just try it ;)
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Let me know when a single DH on the ladder loses to a dodge-stacking Monk without using chemical burn.
And for those of you saying DH's will have to rely on RNG if chemical burn is banned...
...Every monk skill aside from exploding palm is dodgeable and can be broken by smokescreen. Monks are already 100% relying on RNG to beat a DH from the very start. Banning chemical burn evens it out, so to speak.
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Banning sharpshooter can be hard to enforce and prove that dh useing so they can cheating..
they gonna say "it's just lucky and high cc rate".
We need to ban chemical burn for start. It's much easier to prove.
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Banning sharpshooter can be hard to enforce and prove that dh useing so they can cheating..
they gonna say "it's just lucky and high cc rate".
We need to ban chemical burn for start. It's much easier to prove.
Easy to check skills before both players say "go", if you see the DH is using Sharpshooter, just say "hey bro, stop using the Monkpwner passive lol".
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Played against rice now, I couldn't win w/o chem burn. It is like 30%DH-70%Monk if chem burn is banned, he has great EHP and DPS so I feel something should be banned OTHER than chem burn, maybe sharpshooter or ban something of monks in exchange for burn like blinding flash. I know this seems crude, but battles that are all RNG with favor to the Monk in terms of probability, are simply not fun. Sure I can win a few, but like I said, Monk has higher % chance to win due to RNG of dodge and stuff (his attacks 1-shot me, I have to crit 3-4 times to kill him). Another alternative is to ban Near Death Experience.
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It's a difficult problem to solve at higher play when both players have ~50% dodge and play well. The thing is, in this matchup, every skill is dodgeable aside from chemical burn so it was the logical first thing to ban. However, DH damage really does suffer without it. It's like a 4x overall damage boost.
Here's another angle... perhaps we can ban tumble or the extra smokescreen duration instead? This'll make fights much shorter but will allow monks to have an easier time to land hits while giving DHs the damage needed to kill monks. However, it might make this matchup very unenjoyable if it's over in 2 seconds every time.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMuhNbVa9ug&fmt=22
Here is a demonstration of a monk with really high mitigation and almosted maxxed out % elite and ranged reduction.
-The Monk's armor, resist and reduced elite % damage is beyond what a gear set supports to give you the damage you need to actually kill the demonhunter.
-The demonhunter is in Full legacy set, with 72 k HP and approx 400 resi.
-Demonstratee how much the monk in the current 'tank' setup does versus dh , when the dh afk and take the 7ss head on.
-Demonstrate the aim angle impale requires, that is to be compared with how impale is aimed and how haunt is aimed( I will post WD video shortly)
It demonstates the damage of a both a hit and the burn effect there after.
The damageoutput demonhunter can perform on a monk, even with legacy set is the reason the topic chemical burn is up for discussion.
It shoud be fairly simple for the dh to hit monk a few times without getting struck by 7ss.
The gameplay for monk relies to predict were the demonhunter is going to exit smokescreen and precast you r 7ss at that position so that you are allready in animation when she leave the 0.5 second gap between ss.
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why u color ur posts ?