In duels versus the ''Monk'' the skill Haunt is banned.
- In duels versus the “Wizard” the Barbarian can choose one, but not more of the following skills: “Ground Stomp”, “Leap” with rune “Death from Above”, “Charge” with rune “Bull Rush”, “Bash” with rune “Clobber” or “Weapon Throw” with rune “Throwing Hammer”.
1. Guys please explain me why dh can't use bat companion vs wiz.
2. Did u saw any good wd with gargantua and zombie dogs in build? It's not nerf^^
GJ:)
QuoteIn duels versus the ''Monk'' the skill Haunt is banned.
...why?
I was a bit reticent to be honest, but after testing a lot these days, it seems to balance the matchup quite a lot. Besides, it brings many other things into play, such as positioning, resource managente or cool-down management, whereas before it was more of a DPS stack and 1shot haunt duel.
If in the near future, due to whatever reason, this rule seems to be outdated, we can always come back to it.
I disagree with rulz for the Barbs: DH and Wizards. 1st i want to tell i dont blame, i just say my experience.
- After I played vs Mystical i saw that Barbs vs Dh is pretty closed fight. We had like similar gear and he used legacy nata. Still he killed me more times that i killed him like ratio 2:1. And i was using both war cry and shout. When DH has legacy nata all is about resource and resourse regeneration, since his hatred and discipline almost never end.
!!! I advise all dh to improve their skill against barbs, cuz if Mystical can do it, so im pretty sure most of the DH can do it. Also, tell me what i could against a player like him? He will have totaly advantage against me, so before banning pls, think that maybe the correct move is not debuff barbs, but DH improve their game play. And that is not blaming, i just wonder what i could do if i meet Mystical or players like him on the league with banned war cry. Maybe auto loss 0-5? And shout doesnt replace war cry.
- Against wizard. Wow, we got so much debuff - war cry, no double stun and lets say that this was "ok". But now banned WotB? Sorry but i play vs wizards now, and when they use some kind of "slow ms build" even running with marathon is like i dont move. That is blizzard, nova, then nova from ilusion, then more slow. How excatly i will fight if i dont have defense ability and ability that wont save me against like 90% disable? Give me some advise. Because right now 1 wizard i play vs him uses a build that if i dont have ignor pain and wotb, im dead like in few seconds. And my Ignor pain has 30 sec cd, his nova has 12 sec.
I think that banning skills wont balance the game but will disbalance it even more. Also i think that brawling for now is balanced.
!!! Green, pls do not coment what i have wrote. Go watch how Mystical plays.
The biggest fault of this is that, rulez arę made by top Geared players. You made this game Pay to win Just like blizz did. But i know IT have to be..
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if your going to ban haunt in wd vs monk you might as well ban haunt/rend from the league.
skills that are undodgeable don't make sense in the first place as the dexterity stat is essentially useless against it.
I like to stack dex as a barb. should you ban haunt vs barbs too then?
edit: I can look mystical vs vimer, or iownyou. If he will win with this guys we no need rules;pI don't have them on my friends list yet, but I'll duel them all eventually. If they have better gear than Devil, it'll be really hard, but nothing's impossible!? ;)
hey I think the class balance are a lot better here than in 1.2.5
Two suggestions for the wd rules;
- all haunt runes should be banned vs wiz. I think banning all pets not needed but its possible for wd to go glass cannon and just snipe wiz with 2s sec haunt while staying out of range of storm armor.
- haunt can not be banned vs monk. wd vs monk is already in monk favor. wd has 0% chance to defeat a good monk without haunt. any monks having trouble vs wd is simply because they use wrong build/gear and have bad micro. Im not writing this to show off and I know a lot of monks dont want to accept this but it is the simple truth. Please contact player viri#1357 monk on america server to learn some monk vs wd skills.
I would like to suggest that any league rules be made optional on a player agreed upon match basis. Having played most of the top pvpers on the america server I know many would not see the need or the desire to have any rules designed to compensate for lack of skill. both players would need to agree to waive the rules at the start or they apply. this way the handicap applies where it is needed and does not interfere in a match where it is not.
Also what is the reasoning behind removing gear swap in a fight? I feel this is a bad direction to go as it slows the match down and removes a lot of skill/strategy and apm available to top level players. I think only place where gear swap needs to be looked at is full tank gear swap for running during cooldown.
Also what is the reasoning behind removing gear swap in a fight? I feel this is a bad direction to go as it slows the match down and removes a lot of skill/strategy and apm available to top level players. I think only place where gear swap needs to be looked at is full tank gear swap for running during cooldown.
I'm sorry, I just don't understand how a WD is supposed to do damage to me without using haunt. If anything, hex should be banned due to the extreme RNG nature of it.
You cannot balance a matchup based on one top player vs. another top player. You have to balance it to the broadest amount of players. I don't see myself losing to 99% of WD's if they can't use haunt. How are they supposed to damage me?
Please reconsider this rule.
I'm sorry, I just don't understand how a WD is supposed to do damage to me without using haunt. If anything, hex should be banned due to the extreme RNG nature of it.
You cannot balance a matchup based on one top player vs. another top player. You have to balance it to the broadest amount of players. I don't see myself losing to 99% of WD's if they can't use haunt. How are they supposed to damage me?
Please reconsider this rule.
just LOL. Nothing else to say.
its easier to ban all gear swap than specific gear swap but imo its much better for the development of the pvp scene and the players to just allow all gear swap in that case. no gear swap just reduces skill cap.
Blud I have many pvp gear set including top 10 wd pvp dummy in the world, top top 20 world wd dps and top 10 world wd ehp on diabloprogress. I have found it a great advantage to have a variety of gear to adjust for each of my opponents.
Please before you dismiss this just have a chat with viri. I appologize if what I wrote was offensive to you or anyone it is not my intention to come across this way. Just want to make the point that if one monk can do it so can all the others learn. but if you introduce a rule like this then you are slowing the development of a lot of players who will rely on this handicap instead of learning the counters without it.
Yes dh vs barb is balanced without any rules!I read that "DH need to gear up argument" way too often from Barbs. Do yourself a favor and compare the max possible rolls and the rarity of rolls on DH gear with Barb gear. You will find out that it's a lot easier to reach the gear ceiling as a DH than as a Barb. Weapon slot: DH: Hundreds of near perfect Manticores on all servers - they are expansive but if you want them you can easily buy them - Barbs: use mostly midrange spears with an upside of usually a few hundred stats, weapon dps and/or crit damage.
But... at the moment many dh play in this leaque and so far no one of them can kill a 13 mio ehp barb until they gear up.
I don't agree with the ban of a fury generator either, but a slight EHP nerf seems reasonable to me. My proposal still is "Warcry (no rune)", so it's just a 20% res nerf which is one of the easiest defensive stats to obtain on gear.
Pls, watch the video of Mystical and Devil, pls. The only thing that i could accept for banning is War Cry rune 20% bonus resist. But now you will tell - WHAT?? You have rune with more 20% armor. Yes i have, but is still not the same.
I sugest ban ignore pain on barb vs. monk, or make ehp limit for both sides to be more balanced.
yes, it is. but u know, I was played against barb with a few milions of ehp. and it is not a "by skill" but "by gear".
I just thought that we can do somethink with it, like ehp limit, or simple hp limit. I can run a round for even 5 mins, but what sens it makes? it is like barb vs. dh, both fully ehp.
hey I think the class balance are a lot better here than in 1.2.5
Two suggestions for the wd rules;
- all haunt runes should be banned vs wiz. I think banning all pets not needed but its possible for wd to go glass cannon and just snipe wiz with 2s sec haunt while staying out of range of storm armor.
- haunt can not be banned vs monk. wd vs monk is already in monk favor. wd has 0% chance to defeat a good monk without haunt. any monks having trouble vs wd is simply because they use wrong build/gear and have bad micro. Im not writing this to show off and I know a lot of monks dont want to accept this but it is the simple truth. Please contact player viri#1357 monk on america server to learn some monk vs wd skills.
i agree with chuck for wd vs monk, its hard without haunt . No chance
Witch Doctor
- In duels versus the “Barbarian” the skill “Hex” is not allowed.
Thoughts so far about new rules (I have only played 4 matches as DH: vs Monk, Barb, and 2 WD):
Against Barbarian: I have fought one of the stronger Barbs in US (Tbone) and he died much faster without Warcry. The EHP nerf is ok but the problem is that it nerfs his fury generation too much. Perhaps we can compromise if there is a way to nerf only the EHP and not fury generation.
Against Monk: I fought against Wittster and the matches didn't go so well for him still. Perhaps if he used Mystic Ally I wouldn't have landed so many easy hits. Overall the matches lasted longer so that he had a chance to kill me (espcially once I am out of discipline).
Against WD: I noticed little difference here as their Gargantuan wasn't a large threat or annoyance before and I can tank Haunts. I played against Rooster and Edgart, both were average WD who had some decent gear.
I will keep you guys posted on more findings as I duel more.
Totally Agree.... Monks got nerf on lashing tail kick, witch is a ranged attack , and WIzards can you storm armor?
Is not legit nad is no longer fun, please look for a challenging pvp. have experinced 2 battlers with wiz , and what they do is camp , multiply the char and let storm armor do the rest...? is it supose to be fun or easy?
Down to stormarmor!!!
Thnks
hes not an admin, and a 'rule developer' is someone who gives ideas/feedback for rules, we do not create them@pred: my gear is normal imo, not even medium high but cant say "under" not every1 can somehow got eq. like urs. agree I have to work on it but this game is not for few ppl with good gear. 90% players are with normal wore gears so think about it.
Personaly from looking at your gear, I think your undergeared for pvp, as a DH i see wiz have 0 chance without storm armour.
From also looking at your past posts, it kinda seems like your a big kid, thats why your probably not getting serious answers :)
@HoaKiem, SA is 100% but its also dodgable, i think your probably undergeared also, its something you need to work towards
1) camping in the bottom of the map have an unfair advantage
Oh, we did, especially while playing ava, but not only. GA range was way bigger while standing lower on the map than the enemy, that was really cool map controling :)
And a solution with starting from certain spots is simple - player who have challenged is starting first round on left bottom corner, other player on right top corner. They switch places every round. Simple as that.
Due to barb seemingly being OP still we are thinking about the following rulechanges
Barb vs DH
- No sprint
Barb vs wiz
- No rend
- No sprint
Barb vs monk
- no shield allowed
As we also see WD still being OP we think about this as a general rule
- No shield allowed
- No amulet or rings allowed, they must be left empty at all times.
Whats your thoughts about this date?
Due to barb seemingly being OP still we are thinking about the following rulechanges
Barb vs DH
- No sprint
Barb vs wiz
- No rend
- No sprint
Barb vs monk
- no shield allowed
As we also see WD still being OP we think about this as a general rule
- No shield allowed
- No amulet or rings allowed, they must be left empty at all times.
Whats your thoughts about this date?
Due to barb seemingly being OP still we are thinking about the following rulechanges
Barb vs DH
- No sprint
Barb vs wiz
- No rend
- No sprint
Barb vs monk
- no shield allowed
As we also see WD still being OP we think about this as a general rule
- No shield allowed
- No amulet or rings allowed, they must be left empty at all times.
Whats your thoughts about this date?
I saw here a post for more nerfing barbs (seems war cry and wotb is not enough). Posts like " ban inspiring pressence" or reduce barb's ehp are just madness. You guys rly should think about improve at 1st time your skill,build or gear. Or all of them.
And pls, STOP ASKING for NURFING BARBS, cuz this is totaly absurd. Yeah, ban ispiring pressence against Monks. OMG. The monk said that should definetly improve his gear and skill. And take a look over his opponents. If barb is both end game geared and skilled player, ofc you will not beat him with sss and 1hit from wave of light.
Also for all DH that cry non stop "Nurf barbs now even more, war cry is not enough" - go and watch Mystical's video against barb. His eu DH has medium-high gear (about 800 mil) so im sure most of you can allow that gold. He is killing with 140-150 k unbuff dps.
I do have one question about draw rounds: if u kill someone and then die like 3 secs later from a dot is it considered a draw round? or does it have to be simultaneous death to be considered draw round.
happened today to me and since i didnt have it clear and its just test league i let it slip and just went for th 10th round.
I saw here a post for more nerfing barbs (seems war cry and wotb is not enough). Posts like " ban inspiring pressence" or reduce barb's ehp are just madness. You guys rly should think about improve at 1st time your skill,build or gear. Or all of them.
And pls, STOP ASKING for NURFING BARBS, cuz this is totaly absurd. Yeah, ban ispiring pressence against Monks. OMG. The monk said that should definetly improve his gear and skill. And take a look over his opponents. If barb is both end game geared and skilled player, ofc you will not beat him with sss and 1hit from wave of light.
Also for all DH that cry non stop "Nurf barbs now even more, war cry is not enough" - go and watch Mystical's video against barb. His eu DH has medium-high gear (about 800 mil) so im sure most of you can allow that gold. He is killing with 140-150 k unbuff dps.
I don't really think anyone has seen what kind of damage a fully pvp optimized DH can do to a barb.
- Barb vs WD - Same as against Wizards. Against decent WD is annoying - they use echo fury + horrify and its going insane. That double fear effect makes almost impossible to hurt him seriosly. Maybe allowing WotB here is good choice. Cuz i dont have any other skill that counter horrify and echo fury. And cc reduciton is not working.
actually u have a very easy counter; juggernaut
It seems you never faced top wd like Blud,Ivu,Euro. Jugger wont help since you need that passive spot for defansive ability that gives you some protection. And jugger gives 20% cc reduction + heal chance,but i asure that this 15% heal is nothing against decent wd.And as already told,you need 100% cc reduction,no stacking like 50%.
PTR is bugged, the flat elite reduction in the chapel (30% for ranged, 35% for melee classes) apparently does not work. Can't do any testing there right now :(
i pay 200 m to the DH who can beat Executioner in a best of 9, if he goes with his Vitality + Warcry setup. I can stack right now 800 k Ehp, with 140 k dps in with sharpshooter and stalemate for 24 h with every of you barbs. And then i tell you, no barb was able to kill me! Learn to play!...But there is a little thing to notice, i can´t kill them like this too.
Its obvious that this is not nesecary move since no barb can beat Mystical even with war cry. I think the problem is not the barb and his EHP but you and your game play.
Fun duels Executioner, I fear your real gear once you are able to copy it to PTR lol.
So knho what do u want to see if i fight again vs mystical. 10 min game - he kills me in 2-hand. I swich onehand+schield - 40 min draw game. I will use dps-i loose. He will maybe go dps - i will kill him.
I'm pretty sure even with taking 35% more damage, I will beat most DHs even on the broken PTR :)
TAKING CHALLENGERS :P
E-penis getting larger and larger
212k dps * 1.35 = 275k dps with legacy nats. For example, there is a DH ("Rike? Ryke?" I forgot) with 400-500k unbuffed DPS & Legacy... WTF? lol
adding +35% dmg is not the same 35% DR, the calc are done diffrent i belive after because of armour/resis etc
Ive also been told that elite dmg reduce does not work either(not tested myself), thats adding another ~20% dmg to our dmg
and the same for elite reduce stacks (though these have diminishing returns whe u stack more than 1)I think elite/melee/ranged reductions have increasing returns the more you stack do they not?
no decreased, meaning if u stack 3 7 elite reduce items you dont get the 21% dr:
(1-0.07) x ( 1-0.07) x (1-0.07) = 0.804 which is 19.6% dr
with the previous barb: (1-0.9) x (1- 0.35) x (0.804) = 0.0523 or 94,77% dr
1m hp hit x 0.0523 = 52300 hp = 47.7% less dmg than the 90% dr barb. its not the 21+35 it seems it would be.
same goes for elite damage bonus the more pieces u stack the less effective the last one is.
pretty sure you are getting confused by semantics or the way they are labeling it.
for me
Missile Damage Reduction 6%
Melee Damage Reduction 31.01%
Elite Damage Reduction 13.51%
(yes these numbers are smaller than the sum of what I have on gear)
(however look at the ehp gains by stat
+1% Ranged Reduce 27,738.7
+1% Melee Reduce 37,799.96
+1% Elite Reduce 29,974.76
stacking more of one type makes every 1% OF THAT TYPE give more ehp. there are no diminishing returns in reality, only on the displayed %reduction. also I believe blizz has even confirmed there are no diminishing returns on anything except dodge.
Hi,
Want to give Barb vs Wizard feedback:
After fighting different wizzards (non official matchs - practise and tryouts) i could say that i found 1 decent who knows how to play against barb - shadow88#2663. He plays on d3cl test league and as we can see he beated all barbs. I myself couldnt find build to beat him without war cry/double stun and wotb. He is using some kind of heavvy disable. When i use war cry and double stun - the fight is balanced (no wotb). I mean i am not op against that build using war cry and double stun. The winner of the fight is the one who outplays the other player. We made like 1 hour + brawling and we were on close fight. Ratio wins is like 60/40% (55/45%) for me but in the moment i make mistake and i am dead. Maybe the same goes for him. We had like 5 min fight - that means we were on balanced duel.
So as we can see, war cry and double stun build is nesecary against decent and experienced wizard, who knows the weakness of barbs and knows how to play against them. Didnt try Wotb. Once i have time, i will try Wotb without war cry/double stun against him and give more feedback.
Thx for the time.
Like i said. Wizzard are not weak class. There are Just no enough skilled players. Now, when teleport Got buff, we Need think about Wizzard in another way.
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Good discussion!I should mention that PTR builds are snapshotted off our current "work in progress" and sometimes picks up some changes and not others. In this case, the Disintegrate change was picked up, but the Ray of Frost change was not. Ray of Frost got a comparable damage buff as well, which will be seen in the next PTR build (along with the Witch Doctor Firebats damage numbers)
the hardest thing for me vs a good barb is breaking through his relentless phase, 35% MISSING dr IS huge during this phase.
Inspiring Presence The duration of your shouts is doubled. After using a shout you and all allies within 50 yards regenerate 4% of your maximum Life per second for 60 seconds. / Your shouts are: / *Battle Rage / *Threatening Shout / *War Cry
I know this is only on the PTR for now, but since they are not balancing around PvP, I don't see this following change being canceled:QuoteInspiring Presence The duration of your shouts is doubled. After using a shout you and all allies within 50 yards regenerate 4% of your maximum Life per second for 60 seconds. / Your shouts are: / *Battle Rage / *Threatening Shout / *War Cry
Inspiring presence just got DOUBLED. Ban inc for league?
I know this is only on the PTR for now, but since they are not balancing around PvP, I don't see this following change being canceled:QuoteInspiring Presence The duration of your shouts is doubled. After using a shout you and all allies within 50 yards regenerate 4% of your maximum Life per second for 60 seconds. / Your shouts are: / *Battle Rage / *Threatening Shout / *War Cry
Inspiring presence just got DOUBLED. Ban inc for league?
How do you know they blizzard is buffing Inspiring presence? And no, inspiring pressence is vital for barb on pvp. Actually barb cannot play without it. So banning inspiring pressence means all > barb.
i was happy to finally get some damage buffs (from a wizz pov).
and now ... yea ... the damage buff is negated by an huge amount of opponents lreg :D
ah well ... we will see, how that plays out in the end.
Tested vs Zee. First of all, the PTR damage has been FIXED! Second of all, due to the patch, Barbs are now immortal. I will hereby be resigning from d3cl UNLESS some rules are put in place to ensure possible victory. PTR league w/o restrictions can go suck it, even the War Cry ban is not enough anymore lol.
Did any barb fight with fixed PTR vs Mystical and with new changes?
Did any barb fight with fixed PTR vs Mystical and with new changes?
http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7339045161
could anyone post this on us ptr feedback section? i have 'A required field is incomplete' :D
@KNHO -> "There are large communities like 3dcl.com, "
I know that nofear complained about Shadow88 finding a great build vs barbs, but I had no problems vs him, using warcry, so the wc ban is needed.
[...]
I only had about 50k dps but he only had 50k life...he had no problem to burst through this even with the current RoF.
I did a little better with 4 piece Bt and only 170k hp but it was still pretty one sided for him...
Assuming 300k base dps plus 30%soj (kaio has 330), dps with cold blooded should be around 400-450k
With Bt set, buffed, vs elites I have around 11mil ehp with dodge, more with blockso lets say without ignore pain but with reg, rng, etc... it takes about 10 seconds? and thats like super fast? and now consider ignore pain? and the fact that i never can shoot 10 seconds in a row without getting into trouble?
2.8 RoF is base but u get 3.6 with snow blastyou get 3.6 after 1.5 seconds shooting without pause. thats a huge difference. also you need different gear to sustain that beam. i have tested it and did not like it very much actually.
Looking for Wizards and DHs to test new rules vs. WD. I'm on PTR now Euronymous#2637 (checking every 15mins or so).
From what I've seen a lot of barbs greatly undervalue dodge, like it's not "real" ehp.
The only matchup were is not yet needed is vs other barbs, where rend is only atk.
All barbs get 30-34 block shields whereas 2% more dodge does so much more than 2% more block.... and dex even up to 1000 is a very good way to tank up.
Dodge also can prevent stuns and prevent stuff triggered on crit, like CM, whereas block can't.
Warcry dodge is a very good rune, impunity only is better vs dot damage like rend or some skorn exploding palm or haunts but even vs those classes I prefer dodge.
Ofc u need to have high ar on gear to balance not using impunity.
From what I've seen a lot of barbs greatly undervalue dodge, like it's not "real" ehp.
The only matchup were is not yet needed is vs other barbs, where rend is only atk.
All barbs get 30-34 block shields whereas 2% more dodge does so much more than 2% more block.... and dex even up to 1000 is a very good way to tank up.
Dodge also can prevent stuns and prevent stuff triggered on crit, like CM, whereas block can't.
Warcry dodge is a very good rune, impunity only is better vs dot damage like rend or some skorn exploding palm or haunts but even vs those classes I prefer dodge.
Ofc u need to have high ar on gear to balance not using impunity.
I'm ok with you keeping Fire Bats instead of Haunt lol.
We DH didn't really get buffed, sure we can stalemate more with Brooding and Sentry and Rapid Fire got a boost but is still generally weak since we have to stand still to use it.
I think that the balance from season 1 had something to do with gear swapping.
if barbs run for 2 minutes with tank gear than swap to full dps skorn in wotb plus ip maybe they can kill in a couple of shots, cause more is pretty hard to get and the fury cost of wotb+sprint+hotas is too big.
also I think the gear changed a lot from then.
in your recent games vs top barbs, with wotb and no gear swap, what was roughly their win ratio? if it was at least 30% than it should be ok
and what about wd vs wiz then... what do u propose? coz i feel pretty hopeless in that match up
Barbarian
- In duels versus the “Monk” and “Wizard” is not allowed to use the skill “Wrath of the Berserker”.
- In duels versus the “Demon Hunter” the skill “War cry” is only allowed to use with “no rune”.
Barbarian
- The Barbarian cannot use the skill “Wrath of the Berserker” versus the Monk, Wizard and the Witch-Doctor.
- In duels versus the “Demon Hunter” and the “Wizard” the skill “War cry” is not allowed to be used.
- In duels versus the “Wizard” the Barbarian can choose one, but not more of the following skills: “Ground Stomp”, “Leap” with rune “Death from Above”, “Charge” with rune “Bull Rush”, “Bash” with rune “Clobber” or “Weapon Throw” with rune “Throwing Hammer”.