Diablo 3 Clan League - PvP forum
Duelling & Diablo 3 => Rules & development => Topic started by: mannercookie on April 03, 2013, 03:27:05 am
-
Hi,
Good to see you guys, at least some of you guys ;D
I just wanted to stop by and talk about a few things that I've been thinking about.
I will be releasing a new video on the structure/format I want the tournament I'm organizing in the US to be like once it's closer to launch but in the meantime I wanted to share some thoughts with the D3CL community on how to improve and garner attention for D3-PVP.
This will not be organized and well-written, I simply did not have time to do so but I still wanted to share some of my thoughts in random numbered order.
#1. PVP Lobby > Challenge System
It's quite simple really, the current system of actively coming to an website to challenge someone else on the ladder is very 1999. This is not Kali and we are not playing Warcraft-2 on Case's Ladder (You old-school gamers know what I'm talking about).
We need an active-lobby system that Blizzard wasn't prepared to give us yet.
Here's my suggestion.
PVP Lobby = Act 4, MP 4, Quest 1 (This quest is what I found to have the least amount of players that PVE since it's really annoying to start outside of town for PVE players)
Want to play a few matches between your trades or farming?
All you gotta do is jump into a public game and you'll get paired with someone who's waiting for an opponent.
If you can't find a game through search, just create a game yourself and wait.
Once you've found an opponent you guys can agree to a match and create a private game to play out the match.
#2. Incentives, Incentives!
D3-PVP is unlike any other PVP game that has come out to date. The fact that there is a live marketplace and active economy makes it extremely interesting in terms of the landscape of the scene. It may be too early for all of you to see this, but I guarantee you guys you'll see it soon enough.
With that said, D3-PVP requires gold, and a LOT of it.
There are many ways to obtain gold.
You can buy it, you can farm it, or you can play the AH (Which is another game on it's own).
The important thing is you need to acquire it in one way or another in order to be competitive, and this is the fact what makes and will make D3 so interesting. The fact that no two characters are alike in every stat and no two characters have similar gear (With assumption duping is finally fixed obv).
In order for D3-PVP to work, players must be given incentive to gear for PVP since well it costs GOLD and lots of it.
For PVE, the incentives for gearing are you can farm more efficiency and in return you will make up the costs of your progression as you go. There is also an active market where you can buy+sell your old gears that you upgrade out of to the next player looking to progress their character.
For PVP, this simply does not exist.
There is no incentive and there is also no way for players to progress solely through PVP. In fact it's quite the opposite since as more and more players are becoming active in PVP, they are starting to realize that items require a certain % of perfection to truly be able to compete with other skilled players.
PVP is in the end the ultimate progression, you farm PVE or play the AH to acquire gold to progress your PVP character, it is not cheap nor is it easy and quite frankly it should never be.
#3. Tournament System
In my opinion tournaments shouldn't be a supplement for the league system, it should be the opposite.
There should be tournaments with prizepools that give people an incentive to try and push their limits for PVP.
The league should simply be an addition to that tournament where newer players to the scene have a chance to test out their gear and learn to play.
Anyhow, already too long.
This part #3 I will get into more in my next video talking about the structure/format the tournament I'm organizing in the US will be in.
Cheers,
MannerCookie
-
PVP Lobby = Act 4, MP 4, Quest 1 (This quest is what I found to have the least amount of players that PVE since it's really annoying to start outside of town for PVE players)
in 1.0.8 we will got tags like "game for pvp" etc.
-
we had 8 players on last 2v2 ;)
-
Ad 1)
Challenge system combined with ladder system/statistics is not really comparable with pvp lobby. This is more official, this is the place when you can compare yourself to hundreds of other players and pvp lobby is more like "duel me noob" games from d2, when you can show other ppl how lame they are and how strong is your character.
However i like the idea of choosing less-popular quest and mp and make it official pvp lobby, where you can always find someone to duel with.
1.0.8. will bring some improvements to this section too http://us.battle.net/d3/en/blog/9382478/developer-journal-multiplayer-improvements-4-2-2013
Ad 3)
That was idea fix of our d2 activity "The league should simply be an addition to that tournament where newer players to the scene have a chance to test out their gear and learn to play."
But we have realized that in d3 it is damn hard to gather people on one-night or one-day event and make them duel for few hours. For example most of d3cl players arent teenagers, many of them have families and its difficult for them to have that long break in real life for a tournament.
Of course, huge amounts of gold in prizepool for each single tournament would help, but first of all, you need really big prizepool, you need it every week or every 2 weeks (because imo its non-sense to create a pvp community based on single tournament every month ) and you still arent sure that this will bring amount and level of participants you are counting for.
-
That's some nice thoughts, Mannercookie. In theory, ordinary PvP chat channels could serve as a lobby for duelers. The problem is, that info about that has to be spread very widely, so that "PvP channel" is a natural place for people interested in duels. I wouldn't say we are there now... But in 1.0.8 we will get private channels, so we could make them only for ourselves.
Of course, huge amounts of gold in prizepool for each single tournament would help, but first of all, you need really big prizepool
True that. Also. pay attention, that if you want to win shitload of gold, you have to already have shitload of gold to equip your char. That's why we could also try some blue items/max lv leagues.
-
@rogh
They released the new multiplayer info after I already wrote this up nonetheless
even though they are improving public pvp games.
I think for a league system this would be a good way to find potential matches.
all good points rogh
I think the first step it to make something happen and go from there.
The prizepool will grow to a decent amount by the time this tourney I'm trying to setup will run and in terms of participants having few hours to duel I'm not too worried about (can always use reserve players).
@ajantis
Yes 1.08 should fix these a few of the issues I mentioned in OP.
I think the fact that you have a chance to win a lot of gold will give more incentive to spend lots of gold and even without that incentive the players in the US are already spending a lot of gold on PVP.
on a side note, I read through the 1.08 preview notes, and can't wait to see all you guys on PTR.
-
I appreciate all the work you put into evolving pvp but I strongly disagree with your concept of incentives. As you can see in the popularity of this website so far, especially the EU part, people don't need any kind of gold rewards to put in the time, money and effort to play competitive pvp. People are playing for fun and competition atm but by inserting gold rewards, I'm sure you'll destroy a big part of the 'fun' in the equation and replace it with things like lame play, rules lawyering, negative feelings of being forced to spend real money just to be able to keep up. Basically what you will achieve is that the top players will spend even more gold to perfect their gear and the average players will realize even more that they will never be able to compete and just give up. To really make pvp grow, I think you have to keep a strong focus on the average player, as well as offering top competition for the 'elite'. Also I agree with others that it's hard for most of our player base to commit a whole evening to a tournament. I think this whole thing would be a much bigger success if you spread it out over a couple days weeks either as an invitational or as a league top8 playoff or something.
TLDR: I do agree we should offer some incentives for more people to play, but I think the keywords here are 'fun' as opposed to 'gold' and 'more players' as opposed to 'less'. We achieve fun by offering rules that are clear and simple and make duels balanced and quite honestly the whole setup of your pvp ideas and tournament are clearly based on you being an awesome dueller and feeling like you can take on anyone, but just look at all this this from a monk's or wizard's point of view or anyone who think he doesn't have a chance to beat you in a duel and you'll see you'll reduce the pvp community to about a handful of people and then you want that handful to all be able to play for a couple hours at the same exact time on top of that. Also, these people already have the gold to build perfect characters and the $-value of gold these days is negligible. I really don't understand what you're trying to achieve :)
-
TLDR for Wittster's TLDR:
Let's duel for fun, we know your tournament is almost certainly set for you to win and show off lol.
-
I appreciate all the work you put into evolving pvp but I strongly disagree with your concept of incentives. As you can see in the popularity of this website so far, especially the EU part, people don't need any kind of gold rewards to put in the time, money and effort to play competitive pvp. People are playing for fun and competition atm but by inserting gold rewards, I'm sure you'll destroy a big part of the 'fun' in the equation and replace it with things like lame play, rules lawyering, negative feelings of being forced to spend real money just to be able to keep up. Basically what you will achieve is that the top players will spend even more gold to perfect their gear and the average players will realize even more that they will never be able to compete and just give up. To really make pvp grow, I think you have to keep a strong focus on the average player, as well as offering top competition for the 'elite'. Also I agree with others that it's hard for most of our player base to commit a whole evening to a tournament. I think this whole thing would be a much bigger success if you spread it out over a couple days weeks either as an invitational or as a league top8 playoff or something.
TLDR: I do agree we should offer some incentives for more people to play, but I think the keywords here are 'fun' as opposed to 'gold' and 'more players' as opposed to 'less'. We achieve fun by offering rules that are clear and simple and make duels balanced and quite honestly the whole setup of your pvp ideas and tournament are clearly based on you being an awesome dueller and feeling like you can take on anyone, but just look at all this this from a monk's or wizard's point of view or anyone who think he doesn't have a chance to beat you in a duel and you'll see you'll reduce the pvp community to about a handful of people and then you want that handful to all be able to play for a couple hours at the same exact time on top of that. Also, these people already have the gold to build perfect characters and the $-value of gold these days is negligible. I really don't understand what you're trying to achieve :)
I don't think D3CL is as popular as you think, maybe in the EU server (even then just a handful of the same players). Most players on the US server do not play in this league, out of like 50+ people on my list that PVP, only about 5 of them play in the D3CL league and very seldom at that to give you an idea of what the ratio is like (D3CL is not popular on US nor is it known).
I can think of so many good players on the US server that aren't spending the time/gold required to gear up for PVP, well simply because it's expensive and there's no point (good pvp items on US server get instantly bought out @ 2b or max bidded, good pvp items in EU generally sit there with everyone waiting for prices to drop)
I have been paying attention to both markets the past two weeks and I can tell you for a fact that on EU there is almost no competition for gear and there is very little interest in PVP on the whole in terms of the entire population (PVP gear is not being actively bought/sold and traded between players, meaning players who buy gear aren't able to sell their old pieces to get new, this disrupts their progression and forces them to find other avenues to get this gold)
Although you guys may have more people active in the league, there is a much larger player-pool in the US that are actively gearing for pvp and competing for gear and these players on the US already face all the negative problems you speak of in terms of feeling like they need to spend a lot of $$$$ to compete.
I really dis-agree with everything you said and I'm not sure you are qualified to label what is "fun". People want to see PVP played at a high level, that's what builds interest to the game not a league with 50,000 random players. There's a public pvp lobbys and games for a reason, for the average player who wants to casually PVP. A league should be comprised of people who are trying to achieve to be the best and highly competitive to keep it active and interesting.
Also, there is no problem on the US server for our player-base to all sit down on evening for an organized tournament.
I think you have a very skewed idea of what the PVP scene is like because you are basing all your opinions off of what's happened on a much smaller server that is oriented around PVE, well simply because that's the only active marketplace in the EU and the only way to acquire gold (unless your buying gold).
The player-pool and market is much larger and much more active on the US server, and to be frank you should learn what's going on in both servers and take the time to research it before you bash on me in a polite way across your forums.
Cheers
-
Wittster is playing on US server btw.
-
Wittster is playing on US server btw.
^this, funny reply Manner :) I like how you pretend to care about promoting pvp, yet have no interest at all in our view of things or working together, just want to use this platform for your little fantasy pvp world.
You really have a talent for using a ton of words to say nothing but do you honestly believe a couple streams of a few top players is better for pvp in this game than a league with 50.000 players???
-
Hi,
Good to see you guys, at least some of you guys ;D
I just wanted to stop by and talk about a few things that I've been thinking about.
I will be releasing a new video on the structure/format I want the tournament I'm organizing in the US to be like once it's closer to launch but in the meantime I wanted to share some thoughts with the D3CL community on how to improve and garner attention for D3-PVP.
This will not be organized and well-written, I simply did not have time to do so but I still wanted to share some of my thoughts in random numbered order.
#1. PVP Lobby > Challenge System
It's quite simple really, the current system of actively coming to an website to challenge someone else on the ladder is very 1999. This is not Kali and we are not playing Warcraft-2 on Case's Ladder (You old-school gamers know what I'm talking about).
We need an active-lobby system that Blizzard wasn't prepared to give us yet.
Here's my suggestion.
PVP Lobby = Act 4, MP 4, Quest 1 (This quest is what I found to have the least amount of players that PVE since it's really annoying to start outside of town for PVE players)
Want to play a few matches between your trades or farming?
All you gotta do is jump into a public game and you'll get paired with someone who's waiting for an opponent.
If you can't find a game through search, just create a game yourself and wait.
Once you've found an opponent you guys can agree to a match and create a private game to play out the match.
#2. Incentives, Incentives!
D3-PVP is unlike any other PVP game that has come out to date. The fact that there is a live marketplace and active economy makes it extremely interesting in terms of the landscape of the scene. It may be too early for all of you to see this, but I guarantee you guys you'll see it soon enough.
With that said, D3-PVP requires gold, and a LOT of it.
There are many ways to obtain gold.
You can buy it, you can farm it, or you can play the AH (Which is another game on it's own).
The important thing is you need to acquire it in one way or another in order to be competitive, and this is the fact what makes and will make D3 so interesting. The fact that no two characters are alike in every stat and no two characters have similar gear (With assumption duping is finally fixed obv).
In order for D3-PVP to work, players must be given incentive to gear for PVP since well it costs GOLD and lots of it.
For PVE, the incentives for gearing are you can farm more efficiency and in return you will make up the costs of your progression as you go. There is also an active market where you can buy+sell your old gears that you upgrade out of to the next player looking to progress their character.
For PVP, this simply does not exist.
There is no incentive and there is also no way for players to progress solely through PVP. In fact it's quite the opposite since as more and more players are becoming active in PVP, they are starting to realize that items require a certain % of perfection to truly be able to compete with other skilled players.
PVP is in the end the ultimate progression, you farm PVE or play the AH to acquire gold to progress your PVP character, it is not cheap nor is it easy and quite frankly it should never be.
#3. Tournament System
In my opinion tournaments shouldn't be a supplement for the league system, it should be the opposite.
There should be tournaments with prizepools that give people an incentive to try and push their limits for PVP.
The league should simply be an addition to that tournament where newer players to the scene have a chance to test out their gear and learn to play.
Anyhow, already too long.
This part #3 I will get into more in my next video talking about the structure/format the tournament I'm organizing in the US will be in.
Cheers,
MannerCookie
Thx for ur advices we will try to work on them if possible
-
Wittster is playing on US server btw.
^this, funny reply Manner :) I like how you pretend to care about promoting pvp, yet have no interest at all in our view of things or working together, just want to use this platform for your little fantasy pvp world.
You really have a talent for using a ton of words to say nothing but do you honestly believe a couple streams of a few top players is better for pvp in this game than a league with 50.000 players???
This is why I dislike coming to this forum.
I just don't understand why your trolling?
I don't "want to just use your platform", I can promote this tournament with the group of people I'm organizing it with just fine.
I really don't think you speak for D3CL, or do you?
cuz if your are the voice of D3CL, I really have no interest in working with you guys.
edit: the fact you play on US server makes me question your post even more because then you should have some kind of grasp on what's going on in the server.
::)
-
I really don't think you speak for D3CL, or do you?
Nah, i'm not speaking for D3CL, no worries, there's some good guys around here as well.
Apologies for trolling and gl with the tourney etc :)
-
i dont get your skepticism about his intentions. every promotion of pvp is also a benefit of us, especially if we are involed. i do not see any disadventages if we share our platform (which is not ready yet). prizepool is only a minor detail. one thing is certain, we have very small number of players on d3cl and need to do sth with it.
-
As long as we dont build our community around prize pools. I´ve competed in different sports and even pinball (xD) and this has been a discussion almost everywhere. I stand on the no side even though i see occasional and well organized tours with high prizes as something cool. The core need to be built around competition and the will to be high up the rankings, not to get rich. As long as we understand eachother here everything is fine by me.
A Tournament with prizes if we hold one must be well organized, we should do good PR, we should give prizes to final 8 of bracket and 100 mil joker prize to one random player and we _d3cl_ should provide the gold, not the players through entry fee´s. You dont start off well PR wise by letting your not yet existent player base pay for the tournament. Should be crystal clear for everyone. WE pay, or no prize. We should be able to gather at least 500 mil, possibly even 1b.
I agree with mannercookie that tournaments should be the core, not leagues. Thats a complete ego statement for me simply because thats how I like to play. I know tournaments have to be organized through a director and I also know I dont want to be that director so I can only say that I wish to see tournaments :P
I also agree that the first and foremost thing is to get the ball rolling, and we have done that with our league. That the US players dont join it is not our fault, this is a EU community first and US part is like what? 30 days old compared to 13 years of EU? Have patience.
Mannercookie - we NEED a lobby system you´re right. And hopefully we´re getting it in 1.08. So far they posted that the channels will be for friends only but lets cross our fingers and hope they pull out a bit of their control and let us move freely. As I see it Blizz is starting to adress these things so its a matter of when now, not if.
That said - the lobby is great to meet people, but the rankings and stats input need to be on an external site - this site. Our site is not 1999, its very up to date - unfortunatly Battle net is the worst social experience ever to be seen in online gaming so its very hard to meet unless you already know eachother. That puts a sort of pressure on this site that cannot be dealt with because its a problem of battlenet (that they hopefully solve soon). Again - Lobby is great and lets cross our fingers that we can at least come up with some sort of solution for it for next patch.
Just a last quick comment from me - I do NOT believe that we are too old to gather for a tournament. Quite the opposite actually. I dont have time to join in a running league and play a match here, a match there. I plan my time and if I know that there is a sunday tournament this week and a saturday tour next week I can plan ahead and say "im gonna join the saturday tour next week and skip this one cause I have X to do this sunday". Tournaments IS THE SHIT AND YOU NEED TO REALIZE IT ;D
love and kisses and dont hate on us mannercookie.
-
Maybe it was a bit confusing what I wrote, but what I meant by PVP lobby is that
We can still send out challenges on the site, and obviously all the stats/reporting must be done on site.
but
we can supplement that via adding a public lobby that league members are aware of
so for example, Player BOB wants to play a match and he's sent out 10 challenges to others on the ladder.
No one is around to give BOB a match
Bob joins the public D3CL league lobby (act4,mp4,quest1 for example), he waits until someone with the same thought process as bob joins.
they request/accept each other's challenge and start a private game for a match.
Also, I dont hate on D3CL.
I just really dislike trolls, and there are a lot of trolls on this forum.
Cheers
-
Yeah thats exactly how I see a lobby too. Best would a joinable channel to pick up new players too. New players _NEED_ to be picked up in game or at least there need to be a platform in game that is easy to find, pleasurable to join (like imagine 40 people in the d3cl chat all the time you will have conversations about nothing and everything and also stability and new people can get quick answers to questions, those who wanna do pvp can quickly find someone to play with etc. Just like it was in diablo2 and the channels we had there. Was awsome :))
As it is now we only get those who really wants it and somehow heard of it.
But its up to Bnet to provide this, what you suggested is the only possible solution at the moment and it stinks. Thats not your fault, its a problem of social experience of battle net. You simply feel like you´re in offline mode all the time. :(
edit: Our channels in d2 also functioned superb for tournaments as all the players could just meet up there. Those who already played their group matches could wait in the channel while the rest finished and follow the matches and talk to others who were out of the tour or just followed it all. Judges could stand in chat too and were easy to get a hold of and when next round started well, everybody were at the same place and things ran smooth. So fingers crossed for future patches cause they are needed for tournaments to work smoothly.
-
The lobby stuff I find pretty debatable and for me whatever, I just want some way to duel people so I'm still satisfied with the current system.
One thing I'd really like to see is some form of rewards, I think we can all agree that a Dueling/PvP tournament needs to have some reward for winning. I guess right now the only realistic reward is Gold, but it's much more encouraging when you're actually playing for something.
If we Duel for nothing, it's like grinding Inferno Act 3 to "improve your gear" --> except in dueling you "improve your e-peen."
The dueling patch was good, but to be completely honest, it's starting to feel very pointless once again, and I think it's not just me, probably lots of people are starting to feel this way again. A reward of some sort would help this part
-
Tours on diablo 2, pcl, were without any pricez. I think we can make some pricez for the winners. But There will win all the time the same players i think. Meyby... Lets try somę but i think we Need another way to gra Players. We Need to show them Than pvp here is balanced, playable and much much fun.
Made by tapatalk
-
In my eyes the best rewards in diablo2-leaques were the Forum-profile-signatures and unique profile pictures and not any forms of gold or items.
i think most players liked their pictures and the header (for example: Winner 3rd 2vs2 Tournament or Winner 1on1 season 2) where some of you guys have now "d3cl rule developer"
-
i think most players liked their pictures and the header (for example: Winner 3rd 2vs2 Tournament or Winner 1on1 season 2) where some of you guys have now "d3cl rule developer"
great idea. thats the way we should go
-
so in the end most player had a "i won something" and an avatar-picture but the values for the community were quite easy to see
The 4v4 Tournament Winning was one of the lowest ranks. BvB; AvA and so on were very interesing especially for guilds with focus on these mirror-matches and the 1on1 single challenge-title was always the highest valuable aim of all players.
And there were really freaky players in history. If someone like Tac won the 1on1 tour 3 times in a row where all other players of his class were not even top 10 then the player had some skill^^
-
noob tac sits in his kitchen now with USB internet. ;D
-
In my eyes the best rewards in diablo2-leaques were the Forum-profile-signatures and unique profile pictures and not any forms of gold or items.
i think most players liked their pictures and the header (for example: Winner 3rd 2vs2 Tournament or Winner 1on1 season 2) where some of you guys have now "d3cl rule developer"
I agree with these things :) Also it would be nice to see like the top3 of previous seasons somewhere in the sidelines of the main website, perpetuate their names and all that stuff.
-
and really use as often as possible ko-playoffs of the best 8 after the ending leaque-deadline
... nobody wants such think like last season between blud and vimer...
just 1 vs 8, 2 vs 7, 3 vs 6 and so on ... winner 1v8 against winner 4 vs 5 to give 1+2 the chance to battle at the final ... they can trick as much as they want for special position but if u want the title u have to beat everyone anyway
-
Hey mannercookie why don't you play league with us btw?
-
honestly I don't have time to take another 100 challenge requests
and I've already dueled most of the players in the league.
Maybe sometime in the future.