Diablo 3 Clan League - PvP forum
Duelling & Diablo 3 => Rules & development => Topic started by: Green on May 29, 2013, 22:22:40 pm
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Witch Doctor
Witch Doctor vs Wizzard:
• Haunt banned
• Blood Ritual banned
• Choice of corpse spiders with jumping spiders rune, bats fiery, spirit barrage .
Witch Doctor vs Monk:
• Haunt banned
• Horiffy with Frightening Aspect rune banned.
Witch Doctor vs Demon Hunter:
• The choice between a zombie and monster dogs.
• Choice of haunt and Fiery Bats.
• Blood Ritual banned.
Witch Doctor vs Barbarian:
• Fire Bats banned.
Monk
Monk vs Wizard:
• Blinding flash banned.
• Impact cyclone banned.
• Thundering fist fleece rout banned.
Demon Hunter
Demon Hunter vs Monk:
• Impale with chemical burn rune banned.
Demon Hunter vs Wizard:
• Companion banned.
• Preparation of a rune war scars banned.
• Sentry with Aid Station rune banned.
• Brooding banned.
Barbarian
Barbarian vs Wizard:
• Threatening Shout banned.
• Berserker rage banned.
• Choosing between rend and inspiring presence.
Barbarian vs Monk:
• Threatening Shout banned.
• Berserker rage banned.
Barbarian vs. Demon Hunter:
• Berserker rage banned.
• Rend with ravage rune banned.
• The skill War cry is only allowed to use with “no rune”
Items.
• All antique items are banned
Yes. Those are suggestion from players I know personally and I'd like to know your opinion about this. I know that actually rules are not so pure,simple and balanced so I decided to post those. I'm open for all of your suggestions as far as they will be able to implement.
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i kinda lol'd at threatening shout being banned vs monks.
have you not been 1 shotted recently?
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Yes why so many banned monk vs Wizz? What about Wizz? U still guys think Wizz is a weak class?
By tapatalk 4
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so those are the rules, or the rules that ur going to fore from now on? kinda confusing topic name ..
Items.
• All antique items are banned
a ?
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Witch Doctor vs Barbarian:
• Fire Bats banned.
fire bats is no problem, this skill should be allowed... All good barbs lost in season 1 ( without swap gear from full dps too full ehp after berseker ) with similar geared wds, now wd have 2 % regen and still nothing change? Who made this rules ? barb cant win with wd with this same lvl gear
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umhh not really like these rules speciallly as its adressing some stuff that wasnt a problem and not addressing stuff that is, ill speak from wiz perspective:
wiz vs wd: horrify needs to be banned vs wiz as there is no way to break it and getting hit by bats for 1 sec while feared is certain death. I would even say even ban the pets too as it is very hard to fight at range (to stay out of bat range) with pets all the time in the way absorbing hits.... but too much bans already and horrify is really more game breaking.
monk vs wiz: dont see any need to ban fists of thunder.
barb vs wiz: too restrictive for barb only need to ban wotb really
dh vs wiz: here i have a new ruleset to propose that ven, med and me were testing a few days ago and seemed the most balanced we have had so far.
ban: chemical burn, rapid fire, aidstation and brooding.
unban: companion and battlescars
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this topic name is very misleading. i'll change it for a proposition for the next season
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My suggest for monk.
Monk vs. WD.
- ban haunt
- horrify or firebats
- spirit vessel or hex.
For monk also ban Near the Death, vs. WD.
DH is very balanced game. Vs. Wizz there should no be aby bans. I will talk about barb tomorrow. Don't remember two skill names.
By tapatalk 4
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This is bullshit !!! Mr. Mag, this is not serios proposal. Barb vs DH rend with ravage banned? And how is supose barbs to hunt DH? This is absurd. And the new rapid fire is pretty op so war cry with all runes is NESECARY against similar geared/skilled opponent.
Also all other bans are too much and not nesecary. Seriosly. Banning shout against wizards??? HOHOHO, green omg, dude, have you played with barb against similar geared wizard? I asure you, if you play it, you will want even WotB allowed since wizard's mega disable. And shout against monks.
And all other classes. DH vs wizard so nurfed, why? It is nesecary? WD should be able to use haunt against DH with rune 2 sec.
And as Vimer said about WD vs Barb.
PLS, take a serios look on rulz, becouse until now they are not correct ( yes, a big thx really for them, indeed you try to balance it).
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i really want to be constructive but all i have to say is:
season 1 : 300 players
season 2 : 50 players
season 3 : 10 players
not at least because of rules politics .. even no rules were better than all this :(
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i'm not responsible for those rules. i dont know who has even created them. its definetely not a work of dev team (hey! theres no dev team :D)
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Dont know about other classes Matchups but those barb rules are a joke. Whoever came up with that stuff vs wiz obviously never played against a decent one, even with only wotb banned the matchup strongly favors wiz. I mean choice between rend and ip... if u wanna have any chance vs wiz u have to use hota anyway so whats the point?
Vs Dh without berserker and wc without rune could get funny if bunkerstyle with rapidfire is allowed which seems to be the case.
Vs Monk i dont know, has to be tested on top gear levels but i am afraid that might end up with barbs beeing 1 shot victims.
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Witch Doctor vs Barbarian:
The Witch Doctor can use either “Spirit Walk” or “Spirit Vessel” but not both.
this is my proposal in duels barb vs wd. All other allowed
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i really want to be constructive but all i have to say is:
season 1 : 300 players
season 2 : 50 players
season 3 : 10 players
not at least because of rules politics .. even no rules were better than all this :(
Don't blame d3cl and its rules for that, blame Blizzard for not putting out a proper pvp system.
Look anywhere and you will find a similar drop in players. The mainstream along with all streamers quit after a few days of PTR 1.07. Most competitive players quit a few weeks into 1.07 because they realized that D3 isn't rewarding skill. The majority of players I played on PTR 1.07 didn't even log onto PTR 1.08. I haven't been on live 1.08 yet, but who is still playing now that they made an imbalanced game even worse with recent class changes? Can't be many.
Witch Doctor vs Barbarian:
The Witch Doctor can use either “Spirit Walk” or “Spirit Vessel” but not both.
this is my proposal in duels barb vs wd. All other allowed
18-0 with 0 competitors in this league and still demands huge nerfs to other classes, that's just embarassing ::)
Nofear is #2 in the league with a budget barb and he too complains about other classes every day. Who do you guys want to play against? Do you think WDs and others classes are just waiting for more nerfs and that's why they haven't joined the league yet?
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euro you exactly know when good wd join too ladder will kill all barbs 5-0, this rules are just bad ;) Wd with right gear was #1 pvp class and now with 2% buff is out of reach
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Lets be seriously. These rulez are made by one person who didnt even play much all class. This person think wizz is weak abd wd are bot so powerfull. Wd with all his skill (hex. Second life. Spirit walk. Fear. Auto aim high range imba damage dota's. Pets. Hp regen). Guys.. Who else got at least 50% of all these or even similar like these? Wd is good and with right geared he have to the best on pvp. Only retarted players or wd's players cant see it.
I think there are no need many rulez banns etc. All we need is fun. This is not a real life job when u have to make it perfect.
I hope there is some one who can read it and will understand my fcked up english without anythink like translate and t9. Thx
By tapatalk 4
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Euro, the main reason that me and Vimer are on top places is that we have experience - we play since the very begining of the brawling. Also Vimer is 18-0 cuz he is best in skill and gear. Yes,he defeated Mokkal without using WotB. But what if a wizard with similar gear like Vimer join the league? Or WD ? Id like to see fighting you and Vimer (or Blud vs Vimer) since you were on same gear lvl.
Yes, blizzard totaly failed with the last patch skils changes.
And and i dont complain! I just say that DH have their op rapid fire - do you saw what rapid fire is doing to barbs with auto aim rockets and 2 sec disable from passive? I can asure this is a ton of dmg for 1.5 sec.
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@Vimer
#1 EU pvp-dummy WD is in this league, he bought my old gloves for 200eu and I assume that his other gear parts have a similar price tag on them. So maybe try him.
@Nofear
If a wizard or wd with similar gear and skill like Vimer joins you should lose 0-5 and Vimer should go 50/50. But why make rules on "what if"?
Btw. if you want to even out the blood ritual 1% -> 2% buff the most logical thing would be to ban the healing rune on spirit walk (14% every 13s, ~1% on average).
@forti
no rules = no fun
rules = no fun
gear differences = no fun
playing noobs = no fun
Solve it please ;)
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Good point. Im out.
By tapatalk 4
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@ euro
you really need a bit more objective view of the situation... i think u lack on that because maybe u dont play enough this days.
it is really not all bad this days! but especially for barb the season 2 rules are worse and the season 3 prediction is just a joke. If you want nice hints how to make rules just ask the active top players.
Yes vimer is #1 but only because the lack of good players playing d3cl and usind open brawl instead because of the rules.
My rule-prediction according to my class - and i really test every damn day!
Barb vs dh:
warcry norune if dh use not rf - no rules if dh using rf
and goddamn why u want to ban legacy set? there is really no sense in this!
Barb vs monk:
no rules at all is just fine as it is still balanced @ ultra gear lvl
Barb vs wd:
always talk to vimer and why he can beat scorpion and blud and euro not for example, what mistakes some wd do in wotb phase and so on. we can kill 97% of all d3cl appearing wds but still get raped in public games vs skilled wd players.
I agree on vimers spirit walk + vessels theory
Barb vs sorc:
can´t do any predictions because there is still no active ultragearlvl sorc around to test with
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The rule spirit vesel or spirit walk are fine vs. Monk in my opinion. I gave some example yesterday
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actually i think scorpion is at vimer's level (gear wise), i wanna see that result.
U can't just balance for current players because new players can join during the competition, like scorpion did, if he would have enough games played he would probably be no1.
Vimer defeated insane in a very close game (I think insane told me it was 4-1 for him) because vimer just outgeared him, he is much closer to top barb gear than insane is to top wd gear.
other classes just don't have their best players here, or they didn't play enough games to reach the top.
barb vs wiz
most wizzards will agree that no wotb is the only needed rule, mokkal did take 3 games from vimer and he is not at the very top, the problem with wizzards is that they don't yet have enough experience and micro vs barbs, but there are wizzards, like stalker for example, that could destroy any barb easily if they had mokkal skills. Ximae also said he has balanced games vs vimer.
barb vs monk
nerfing barbs vs monks is weird, why? monks have the best burst in game and can 2 shot blue bell or sss any barb in game if they get lucky with crits, u want now them to 1 shot? also vs tempest rush, having threatening shout is mandatory for fury gain, is just like vs legacy dhs, without enough fury barbs could never catch a tempest rush monk.
barb vs dh
banning legacy natalya set makes no sense, it's actually the most skill dependent class and many legacy players don't have top non-legacy gear... Anyway even against non-legacy banning ravage rune is kinda lol, good dhs will be able to run and burst a good barb before he can even get in range to do 1 rend. Again, there aren't any top non-legacy dhs here, and the use of rf is probably not yet optimized vs barbs.
without rf, banning runes on wc, maybe also relentless, is more than needed, but vs rf with rockets and ballistics it makes no sense.
Wotb is used to counter a tanky static dh build, a good dh, even non-legacy, will not be caught with wotb. No mention here about camp mode being banned, and wotb is exactly used to counter that cheese, like we see in so many public games.
barb vs wd
if wd uses bats and haunt or bats and spirit barage he doesnt have the fire power to prevent a barb from running and regen until next wotb. on the other hand bats encourage that style of wotb and running for 1.45 because 2 stuns in a row means death, so i actually agree to bats banned, not because of damage but because of the fact that it encourages that boring game style from barbs.
The main difference is what wds do during barb wotb, I even killed scorpion once in wotb, he had 100k hp bats and barage, while i could never catch insane in d3cl. I tried what euro mentioned against various wds, ground stomp or threatening but still furious charge seems to be the best way, I would like to hear what vimer uses.
the main "problem" of barb gear, and why so many complain about barbs, is that getting 80-90% of the stats of vimer for example is not prohibitively expensive, but getting 80-90% of the stats of a top player in other classes is very expensive, because high dps gear is still more expensive than high ehp gear (not absolute top, but pretty close).
euro called nofear a "budget barb". For example, I am about the same gear level as devil, from what i see on dprogress, i have slightly more ehp because i have 7% vs elites on chest, so in dprogress numbers it would be something like 6.5M in full bt set (which is actually comparable to a 7.5-8M non bt set and litany, in dprogress numbers), while he has slighlty more dps, because of more cc, the critical hit being about the same.
I dont think that i spent more than 2bil on all my gear, although i have a lot of secondary pieces, maybe 3bil max. I guess i'm a budget barb too compared to other players? but would you call devil a budget barb? even though he probably spent a lot more he currently has about same stats as me, not the budget is important but how you spend it and also playing skills matter a lot. Nofear is probably more experienced than the "top" barbs that's why he still does well in less gear. For example i see katmp with tens of billions of gear, the spear alone i know for sure it was in the tens of billions range, and he still lost to players that nofear and me 5-0ed.
I'm sure the same can be applied to other pvp players, having good gear is not everything, and not a lot of players are at the top of pvp skills, that's why vimer is no1, he is best geared and probably most experienced pvp barb, no other player in d3cl is there yet.
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@ euro
you really need a bit more objective view of the situation... i think u lack on that because maybe u dont play enough this days.
it is really not all bad this days! but especially for barb the season 2 rules are worse and the season 3 prediction is just a joke. If you want nice hints how to make rules just ask the active top players.
Maybe these active top players should form a team and come up with some rules then? As you can see there are no rule devs left at d3cl. So if you guys consider yourself active top players, contact Mag. I'm sure he would be happy to have some new rule devs.
Yes vimer is #1 but only because the lack of good players playing d3cl and usind open brawl instead because of the rules.
Barb vs wd:
always talk to vimer and why he can beat scorpion and blud and euro not for example, what mistakes some wd do in wotb phase and so on. we can kill 97% of all d3cl appearing wds but still get raped in public games vs skilled wd players.
I agree on vimers spirit walk + vessels theory
Okay so you want to tell me that top WDs only play in public games (=no rules) because of current rules? What makes you think they have any interest in joining here if you make rules worse for them?
@Dark
I'm saying budget because a lot of you barbs use that argument in your favor. So if insane gets close to beating vimer with a gear disadvantage it is not allowed to happen and you want more rules so that Vimer always wins 5-0 unless a 50b+ WD with hundreds of hours of pvp experience arises? And it goes without saying, if he loses against a WD like this, clearly more rules are needed. If the WD loses, he needs more practice.
But if you guys win vs better geared players like you do all the time, gear suddenly doesn't matter? It's skill and experience, but certainly not class imbalances?
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the class imbalance of barbs is that they rely on ehp gear and ehp gear is less expensive when it's not absolute best in slot, like vimer has.
"if you guys win vs better geared players like you all the time" - define better geared? on amount of gold spent? that means nothing, the only way you can compare is how close player X is to the best player in his class. If I have 85-90% of the stats of the top player of my class it means i am better geared than another player that has 80% of the stats compared to the best of his class, does is matter i spent 2 bil and he spent 50bil? that's his problem.
That is the main argument vs barbs now, you look at nofear and see he has gear worth 10 times less than the opponents he 5-0 but his gear is probably closer % wise to that of the top geared barbs, because that's how the market is now, and he probably has more experience.
using the right skills can make a very big impact - just consider that nerves of steel can add 25-30% ehp, warcry a lot more, a 15-20% less ehp in gear quickly becomes irrelevant, the same with marauder rage, if a barb can spec marauder instead let's say charge because he is more skilled and can catch without it, basically it doesnt matter that another "top" player has 30% more dps on gear.
all classes rely on expensive dps-pve gear (on most slots) that everybody looks for on ah, barbs rely on ehp-pvp gear and only the absolute best are worth billions, because the pvp player base is much smaller. if the top barb spenders really started pvp than the prices would probably go up and my gear would be worth more, but does it really matter the gold value?
that's why the only valid rules are the ones made by the very best players in the class, not just gear wise but also skill wise.
dunno if you, euro, still have your pvp gear but if you can fight vs vimer until it's close to 50-50 or at least 40-60 than that is the point where the match-up is balanced.
each class should designate their top 2 players and do an invitational test league with 10 players where various rules and bans are tested.
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No I don't have any gear left. Let me get this out about "best in slot". How does one define that?
Vimer defeated insane in a very close game (I think insane told me it was 4-1 for him) because vimer just outgeared him, he is much closer to top barb gear than insane is to top wd gear.
the main "problem" of barb gear, and why so many complain about barbs, is that getting 80-90% of the stats of vimer for example is not prohibitively expensive, but getting 80-90% of the stats of a top player in other classes is very expensive, because high dps gear is still more expensive than high ehp gear (not absolute top, but pretty close).
In my opinion top Barb gear is the hardest to get since you rely a lot more on rares and crafts. Top WDs are a lot closer to their gear ceiling than a Barb like Vimer. Vimer could gain +300 stats on his shoulders alone, 200str on his bracers, hundreds of stats and lots of crit on his amulet and weapon. If you look at top WDs and other classes: 50 stats on vile ward (little benefit even from perfect crafts), 50 stats on lacunis (can't use crafts because of movement speed), 50 stats on tal rashas amulet (little benefit even from perfect crafts), 50-100 dps on EF/Manticore (rares can't beat the CC/DPS). On budget WDs and other classes it will be 50-100 stats and 100-150 dps which is still pretty high compared to the potential of barbs.
So now it's a question of where to set the bar for "highest gear level". Is it the maximum possible rolls? The best items that exist? The best or most expensive char of a class? The best items a certain amount of gold can buy?
In my opinion it should be maximum possible rolls. This is the only thing you can count on, best existing items and chars will always change.
Like you said about the budget barbs, it's how the market is now. If it takes more effort to get best in slot Barb gear, why should that be accounted for in rules?
The real problem of the match-up still is WD CC and lack of CC breakers on Barbs. This probably can not be solved until Blizzard makes some changes to WotB. Til then: Get better gear and stop complaining :P
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Dark Raven explained very well. Yes, i may spend less gold than most of the players i faced, but my gear is pvp optimizated, maybe i am in the 80-85% range ( my pvp gear is totaly different than my pve gear). Still pvp is not popular, so barb's pvp items are cheaper than high end dps items for othe classes. But ! the top barb's pvp items are closer to the prizes of the other top items - example, decent spear can easily go 10 bil, decent blackthorne pieces worth 1.5 - 2 bils, the best worth more. I myself to get upgrade now need like 5-10 bil at least.
Also i play pvp since the 1st ptr patch, so obviosly experience, personal skill and gear/skill setup helps. I have different gear build against different opponents - sometimes i need 3 k dps more than 3 k life. Sometimes 1 skills is useless,but other time is perfect in my skill build. You need to analize the opponenet and build proper skills/gear setup.
Thx.
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i really have to be honest, objective and fair and so i can only talk about Barb vs other classes.
i fought vs many players of different classes and i have contact to the other barbs with highend-pvp-gear and we talk about strategies.
according to that tests i made my prefered rules right here some hours ago.
- generally i have to say that the overall balance by blizzard is not that bad
- barb design is ok in my eyes only wotb 100% dps rune is not in line with all other skills in the game
- generally lifereg doesnt fit the pvp system at all and only causes problems, especially now the 2% for wd and 4% for dh are just mistakes in pvp development
- wd is by design now too strong by the combination of dps/mitigation potential so we have to find a way to bring it back in line or blizzard will do for us in future maybe by braking sheep if victim lose more than 20% of his max life or something like that - only 1effective nerf would bring wd back in line
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Like I said, if you want to get the WD regen back to the 1.07 Level, ban the healing rune on Spirit walk. It's 14% over 2s every 13s, so ~1% on average.
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barb vs wiz
most wizzards will agree that no wotb is the only needed rule, mokkal did take 3 games from vimer and he is not at the very top, the problem with wizzards is that they don't yet have enough experience and micro vs barbs, but there are wizzards, like stalker for example, that could destroy any barb easily if they had mokkal skills. Ximae also said he has balanced games vs vimer.
mokkal lost (4:5, so very close duel) a fight against p0is0nchita. It seems like barb vs wiz is balanced with the current rules (1.2.6) considering the fact they are at the same gear level.
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barb vs wizz is defenitly ok for both sides with juse wotb ban.
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Euro you are funny talking about barb items, what is good etc ;D
in shoulders and bracers you have only free slot for potions bonus and is very good in relentess area if you know what is this ::)
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Do you know how affixes work? Your shoulders are 111 str out of 300, bracers 0 str out of 200, weapon 47 crit out of 100, amulet 65 crit out of 100 and so on. You don't have to lose any stats for it (except for the useless arcane, psn and low dex rolls).
Usually for best in slot you would expect at least 85%+ perfect rolls (like your BT set, that I consider best in slot). If you had 85%+ rolls on the 4 stats I mentioned you would gain 30% pure damage (and more EHP because of armor).
Look at the top WDs and DHs (if they still have gear), you will not find many slots that can get huge upgrades like that.
I don't think you understood my post. It was a response to DarkRaven saying that budget barbs are better than other budget classes because they use non-pve items that are on low demand. And I agree with this, but it's the opposite if you look at maxed out chars. It's much easier to build a near perfect WD/DH. Barbs rely on rares and crafts, much harder to get best-in-slot on these.
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I am looking now at scorpion gear, dunno if he has best PvP gear or not but he is no1 PvP dummy score. I think he is missing just as many stats, if not more than vimer.
actually barbs have 8 "fixed" slots with legendary or set items, wds seems to have around 9, but the amount of % of perfection on vimers fixed slots seems better than what scorpion has.
in a lot of situations barbs have to also use lacunis. Also vile wards like mine have ehp similar to top crafted ones, plus It's based on mitigation rather than pure hp and they have life regen. weapon and amulet are the biggest drawbacks in building a decent but not prohibitively expensive barb.
and what does budget have to do with crafted?
you say barbs should get better gear but already barb budget pieces have more % of perfection stats than other classes high budget ( not top ) pieces, for the reasons mentioned before.
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its not a problem of items!
problem @ wd is the dps scaling
all 250 k dps wd have same dps potential as 600 k dps dh and monk and thats the problem blizzard! has to solve
its not that funny that a 140 k life wd has the same survivability like 16 mio ehp tankbarb and still 180 k dps thats similar to 350-400k dps demon hunters
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Is 1 problem euro, this items dont exist what you have described ;D
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@euro i just read your item-post ....
it is just not correct that we have not good enough items! according to all optimized calculation we know whats the best 1 hand + shield and best 2 hand combination.
and it is not so far away from the wd items because also perf vile ward and perf lacuni fit those perfect setups the pvp problem of barb is that u cannot play with these setups because blizzard gave us no anti cc!
if we use the best items in the world we are not pvp competitive because we end up buffed with ~ 200 k dps and 8 mio ehp!
as we have no anti cc every barb dies in first cc phase because lack of anti cc what forces barbs to use stupid wotb or use gimp tank setup ending up @ 90 k dps and 16 mio ehp because thats the only way to go at the moment and the items u need for that are mostly rares that u can only craft and that are difficult to maximise
if blizzard gives us a viable anti cc or skills that scale with our dps for example not a lol 120% weapon dps on our best pvp skill whirlwind but maybe 300% u will cry if we use our best in slot items
for example look at airbusor he has nice dummy items and is just not competitive in his setup as he dies in 1 sheep or rapid fire series with his 8 mio ehp
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Is 1 problem euro, this items dont exist what you have described ;D
Yes, but they can exist.
"So now it's a question of where to set the bar for "highest gear level". Is it the maximum possible rolls? The best items that exist? The best or most expensive char of a class? The best items a certain amount of gold can buy?
In my opinion it should be maximum possible rolls. This is the only thing you can count on, best existing items and chars will always change."
@DarkRaven
Blud and me used legendaries on all but one slot (gloves). There are some slots where rares can be an alternative, but that's similar to rare belt/pants/gloves being an alternative to what Barbs usually use. I don't know if there are WDs right now that are closer to perfection than Vimer, Scorpion is playing for pvp-dummy and at least half of his items on his profile are not best in slot and shouldn't be used vs. Barbs.
You have to look at the char as a whole and can't just do slot by slot comparisons. If you lose hundreds of stats on your weapon, amulet and shoulders (possibly bracers too if not lacunis) it has the same effect as using average legendaries instead of best-in-slot legendaries in multiple slots. What good is it if you gain 40 stats with the best on server 90/90 BT boots compared to common 70/70 BT boots if you lose out on 200 stats on one or more of your rares?
Rares make or break Barbs. Crafts have nothing to do with budget, but without crafts it would be even harder for Barbs to reach their max potential.
@IMP
You are just making up numbers in your first post.
WDs best skill has 230%+3*65%, how much do rapid fire and wave of light deal again?
How does a 140k life WD have the same survivability as a 16m ehp tank barb? WDs usually don't have more than 1.5m EHP vs. Barbs or 3m vs. other chars if they use tank gear.
If you use Vile Ward as a Barb you give up your advantage of 100 (130) stats compared to dex/int classes. Therefore Vile Ward can never be best in slot for Barbs. It is basically impossible to make up for that loss on other slots because like I said, at the top level you can only get 20 stats here and 20 stats there on legendaries.
"and the items u need for that are mostly rares that u can only craft and that are difficult to maximise" Crafts only have +30 stats on perfect rolls compared to rares. Without crafts it would be even harder than it is now to get good rares.
But this is exactly my point, Barbs are more difficult to maximize. I gave you guys an example of Vimers items, 4 changes for +30% DPS without an EHP loss if you get stats on the level of good legendaries (~85% rolls).
Most Barbs could gain 25%+ DPS from their spear alone if they would switch to one that is on the level of perfection of EFs and Manticores. That alone shows which class has the highest upside right now...
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you just dont get it ...
even if we had perfect items + 300 extra str + 300 extra vita there would still be no chance vs wd!
we can not even use perfect statz at all! because we are forced to use some -fury cost items, fury regen passives or extra life on healpots stat on items! together with faster run
how i come up with those numbers?
if i use my 18 mio ehp setup together with all def passives and mitigation skills together with relentless zone, 30 k healpots and liferegen i end up somewhere at 40 mio ehp
to kill those 40 mio ehp every pure dps sorc and dh needs longer than an 230 k dps wd and thats just not the right scaling in my eyes
same at ehp! 140 k life wd using his 2 lifes and permasheep and the new stupid liferegen can stand even longer vs dps dh than any tank barb!
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euro just dont understand ...
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Are you seriously telling me that 300str, 300vit and tons of crit/dps can't make any difference? What's going on here? This game is almost purely based on gear if players of similar experience meet. How can this not be the difference between winning and losing?!
Your numbers are made up. A 40m EHP Barb (really, that much is possible?) will not die faster than a 140k life 2-3m EHP WD in a realistic setting (permasheep vs. DH isn't realistic).
A 500%+ or 900%+ weapon damage skill deals more damage than a 230%+3*65%. Ever died vs. WD in 1 or 2 shots like vs. some Monks or in a few seconds like in DH rapid fire meltdowns?
I always like discussion about rules, but it's getting silly. No point in discussing with you guys anymore. This is one of the more balanced match-ups in the game with WotB and you apparently just can't accept it if 2 or 3 WDs on the server are able to beat you.
Cheers, see you around in some future patch.
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wd was he best pvp char from the beginning...
and guess what? blizzard gave him 3 incredible nice buffs!
1. 25% more ehp
2. 2% lifereg
3. a skill that does i cant really say but about 3 mio dmg/s out of 200 k dps that u can use to kill someone that is sheeped 1 time and got no single anti cc spell
wotb using is so incredible stupid
good wd dont even use pets in this phase use no dps at all just ran around 1 corner according to the fury cost of wotb u have to use dumb setup anyway to have fury for 3 hits everytime u use sprint even 1 more hota hit is gone
if the wd using 140 k life setup u need 2 crits to kill him after wotb u are dead without weapon swich
guess what the win statistics in those matches look like ^^
and yes the difference is that vs every other class i am able to avoid minimum 50% of the incoming dps wd always gets his 100% and furthermore he is the only class we cannot use rend the only pvp viable attack because the wd is just immune to this even monk and dh get at least 50% of the dmg if they use their anti
barb has no anti cc at all only got some nice running abilities that work together with liferegen and the problem vs wd is the dps in a row ... i can not even use my overpower shield nor my 2 mio ehp giving healthpot while sheeped
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And this is why i wont play against them. Its wasting my time. You cant win with these rules. I think also some players wont play because of wd. Some players change them to wd, join this league and 'im skilled'.
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I want to say also, it is not because rules. It is because blizzard.
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do some test games with vimer vs a top wd using ef, like euro did... with hex banned, maybe even bats allowed, I'm sure wds have a lot of cc available to make it work.
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So. We need figur out why players dont join this league. What do you thinkig about? It is because of rulez? Because of blizard? Do you think there could be more players after tvt? Even awards didnt bring them as i c. Meyby the challeng system? Meyby we need change some stuff with this. but how. Just saying.. Im under 1200 rating, every players who can play with me are always offline :p i think we got 10-20 active players at this moment. I know there could be many players. I really dont know why ppl are affraid.. There are maby many players in public brawling.. Meyby wrong theard. Then sorry.
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"do some test games with vimer vs a top wd using ef, like euro did... with hex banned, maybe even bats allowed, I'm sure wds have a lot of cc available to make it work."
No just barb cant to be close around wd, all his specs + high % fear EF. And now 2% regen + 7% regen spirit walk. Btw euro, you and blud too didnt have perfect gear ;D just good/average items from ah
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I've been doing non stop testing vs monks the past couple days. (viri, miejueshitai, mafia, shisky, lazar, etc). This is a very tough matchup for barb.
I am still in the process of testing builds and I am getting closer to finding one that works. However it involves stacking single resists in order to be viable which may not work if monk switches from wave of light (arcane) to exploding palm (physical) for example. I have reached 15 million+ ehp with 60k dps and still can get 2 shot by blue bell. Exploding palm / SS (physical) is much easier to deal with but it still is in monks favour if i drop single resists and switch to more elite % and more vitality (~13 million ehp) but at that point cant survive a stun/wave combo without popping ignore pain, then they come back at you with sss while ignore pain is down.
I am forced to use items like legacy mempo (80 all res, 50 arcane, 75 vitality, 11% life) and lucky craft rolls (i.e. shoulders 50+ arcane, 200+ vit, 12% life, 80 all res) in order to have a slight chance.
monk - barb ; America:
5;1
5;0
5;1
5;4 (sky is mie's friend irl , mie said he gave him 4 free wins)
5;2
5;1
5;3
5;2
5;0
5;3
5;0
5;0
5;0
5;0
5;4
3;5
5;2
2;4
1;4
0;3
0;5
0;5
0;5
16 wins monk
7 wins barb (5 were by me)
80 fight wins for monk
48 fight wins for barb
i'm an analyst irl i have put enough time into this to know, if a d3cl rule developer wants to talk more about the math on this matchup feel free to add me linkolas#1725.
i will let you guys know if i come up with a solution for monks with the current rules.
edit: just noticed threatening shout is now going to be banned too. Can't catch monks without threatening shout (intimidate)
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U want restriction for monk?
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what was your setup when u tested link?
I agree I do have some problems vs monk, but not because of their dps but because of their stalemate ability with tempest rush, if they play safe I can never catch them and eventually I will do a mistake.
Vs non-tempest builds it is actually a lot more fun, balanced and fast. I tested vs Tomas a while ago, his build was normal bells and sss, no tr. In first games he got me more, last time it was 5-4 for me, after that he switched to palm to counter my dodge and got me more ( i didn't try to optimize my build vs palm but it can be done).
I also tested my setup vs his blue bells, standing still he got 2 crit blue bells in about 20 shots... because I have ~40% dodge vs monks and his cc was around 50 i think. Basically the chance to get 2 crit blue bells in a row is extremely small, but if they just run around the map for 1 hour they will eventually get it because it's very hard for barbs to catch them.
in my d3cl duel vs mnich, i started 3-0 but lost 3-5. Basically at first he played less safe while i played safe, after that he started running and waiting for cds, while i got bored of playing safe and made mistakes, the same happened vs psykes with his tankier stalemate build, the duel lasted for more than 1.5 hours... which was actually the reason why I left the league... I enjoyed much more getting 0-5 vs insane than chasing a tr monk for hours around the map.
My EHP with dodge (but without block) vs melee elites (dunno if bells and/or sss are melee or ranged) with the skills used is around 14mil, slightly more with block but block doesn't do much vs monks; a lot more if I would have used superstition (~17mil) instead of unforgiving, and tried to stalemate. dps was 58k+6%, so around 61 let's say. (vs psykes with his stalemate-ish build i went to about 90k dps still tanking pretty well if I played safe but still almost impossible to kill him when he played safe)
156k life, 940ar, 11.3k armor, 39,6% dodge, -16,94 vs melee, -30% vs elites (I have 35% on gear but it's multiplicative not additive)
my personal approach is dodge because a crit blue bell does anyway a lot more than 50% damage. Ideally you would want to be able to tank 2 crit blue bells without IP but I dunno if it's possible, maybe vimer with his more "raw" ehp gear can do it.
The biggest problem is if they crit with first bell you have to IP to survive a second, not very likely, crit and after that you risk getting sss.
As I mentioned before, my personal problem with this match-up, is tempest rush, not their damage. I use unforgiving, warcry dodge and threatening shout for fury gain, with sprint and charge to catch them, but it doesn't seem enough, maybe other barbs can share what skills they use in this match-up.
and yeah, nerfing threatening vs tempest rush monks is a joke...
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So ban tempest rush and ip. Deal? As u said it os hard to get 2 crts in a row by blue bell. So we need run for serenity cd. U can one crit rend or hota most of the monks.
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I would say ban tempest rush and sprint, the movement speed skills which make it such a long boring match-up, dunno if others would agree with this. Ignore pain is the only way to survive an sss from a top monk, if u ban that it will be just 1 shot fest before barb even gets the chance to do anything.
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That sounds fine for me.
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I would say ban tempest rush and sprint, the movement speed skills which make it such a long boring match-up, dunno if others would agree with this. Ignore pain is the only way to survive an sss from a top monk, if u ban that it will be just 1 shot fest before barb even gets the chance to do anything.
Sounds like a realy good idea for me.
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what was your setup when u tested link?
I agree I do have some problems vs monk, but not because of their dps but because of their stalemate ability with tempest rush, if they play safe I can never catch them and eventually I will do a mistake.
Vs non-tempest builds it is actually a lot more fun, balanced and fast. I tested vs Tomas a while ago, his build was normal bells and sss, no tr. In first games he got me more, last time it was 5-4 for me, after that he switched to palm to counter my dodge and got me more ( i didn't try to optimize my build vs palm but it can be done).
I also tested my setup vs his blue bells, standing still he got 2 crit blue bells in about 20 shots... because I have ~40% dodge vs monks and his cc was around 50 i think. Basically the chance to get 2 crit blue bells in a row is extremely small, but if they just run around the map for 1 hour they will eventually get it because it's very hard for barbs to catch them.
in my d3cl duel vs mnich, i started 3-0 but lost 3-5. Basically at first he played less safe while i played safe, after that he started running and waiting for cds, while i got bored of playing safe and made mistakes, the same happened vs psykes with his tankier stalemate build, the duel lasted for more than 1.5 hours... which was actually the reason why I left the league... I enjoyed much more getting 0-5 vs insane than chasing a tr monk for hours around the map.
My EHP with dodge (but without block) vs melee elites (dunno if bells and/or sss are melee or ranged) with the skills used is around 14mil, slightly more with block but block doesn't do much vs monks; a lot more if I would have used superstition (~17mil) instead of unforgiving, and tried to stalemate. dps was 58k+6%, so around 61 let's say. (vs psykes with his stalemate-ish build i went to about 90k dps still tanking pretty well if I played safe but still almost impossible to kill him when he played safe)
156k life, 940ar, 11.3k armor, 39,6% dodge, -16,94 vs melee, -30% vs elites (I have 35% on gear but it's multiplicative not additive)
my personal approach is dodge because a crit blue bell does anyway a lot more than 50% damage. Ideally you would want to be able to tank 2 crit blue bells without IP but I dunno if it's possible, maybe vimer with his more "raw" ehp gear can do it.
The biggest problem is if they crit with first bell you have to IP to survive a second, not very likely, crit and after that you risk getting sss.
As I mentioned before, my personal problem with this match-up, is tempest rush, not their damage. I use unforgiving, warcry dodge and threatening shout for fury gain, with sprint and charge to catch them, but it doesn't seem enough, maybe other barbs can share what skills they use in this match-up.
and yeah, nerfing threatening vs tempest rush monks is a joke...
I agree DarkRaven the real issue may be tempest rush, but I don't want to jump to that conclusion yet.
Item wise i have a lot of build options vs monk. Currently i am testing setups to beat a pure tempest rush/stun/blue bell monk. I have other builds vs stun/sss/exploding palm/wave of light or dashing/stun/wave of light/sss or pure exploding palm only etc.
http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/linkolas-1725/Link/1696813
The only way I am able to catch a tempest rushing monk is with 24% movement, charge , threatening shout, sprint marathon, and bash stun. The real problem is having enough fury generation combined with survivability in order to catch them, if you try to use unforgiving EHP is much too low.
Active Skills
Bash - Clobber
Furious Charge - Stamina
Sprint - Marathon
Threatening Shout - Intimidate
Ignore Pain - Iron Hide
Rend - Ravage
Passive Skills
Inspiring Presence
Superstition
Nerves Of Steel
This is the build I am having the most success with right now. Sometimes I will swap bash with war cry but vs monks like mafia with 65k health globes and 80k+ life its very hard to land enough rends in a row to kill them.
I have not asked for a nerf to monks I am just saying statistics say it is a difficult matchup for barbs and I will keep testing with mie later today, I will let you guys know.
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I testen high aspd high loh setup against rebd barb. With full bt i sometimes i can tank 70k dps crit rent. The problem is with dmg... 1h loh socket 1200dps abd cd are sooo rare. And thevrest of the gear.. But ghere is so many solution v barbs. I just think monk have many many more builds then other class.
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And how barb will chase a monk with no tempest rush? WIth same move speed , monk would kite barb. And more, you can land 1 rend, after that monk will be far away from the barb. This is not good.
And hello Forti, stop writting about barb vs monk, since you are not in top lvl. Once you reached your game will change against that class.
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You start whining again?
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And how barb will chase a monk with no tempest rush? WIth same move speed , monk would kite barb. And more, you can land 1 rend, after that monk will be far away from the barb. This is not good.
And hello Forti, stop writting about barb vs monk, since you are not in top lvl. Once you reached your game will change against that class.
Charge, jump, Shout with slow rune, rend with slow rune.. choose one.
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@nofear. Tempest rush gives 60% ms, sprint gives 50%. barb can catch a monk easier this way while he still has enough skills to close distance, as baharoth said, like charge and leap, also bash to stun, plus threatening slow rune etc.
@link, your ehp and your dps seem kinda low.
You have around 4.5m base ehp vs melee elites with dodge but without block, I have around 6m with my base gear, around 7m with the dex gear I use vs monks, vimer has 6.3m with his current gear from dprogress and he probably can go a lot higher vs monks. These are calculated with a manual ehp calculator you can test yourself if you want.
http://rubensayshi.github.io/d3-ehp-calculator/#intro
I suggest you try reduction vs elites, the more you have the more valuable it becomes, for my gear 7% vs elites is easily worth around 120ar, or 240vit, or even more depending on skills used. Also the ehp comes a lot more from mitigation rather than pure hp which is a lot better, plus bt set has a lot more life reg on gear. I think that absolute best rare belts and ice climbers can reach similar ehp levels as bt set but more based on pure hp which in the end is worse than mitigation plus life reg on gear.
As for your dps, 55k with 1.5aps seems pretty low, your best normal attack crit hit is around 91k, I have 132k while vimer, for ex, has 145k basic crit in his dprogress gear with a lot more ehp than you have.
I think that at top level the matchup is balanced. From what I see in US league I think the monks there are a bit more geared than the barbs, that's why you got those statistics.
For me at least, the most stupid matchup is versus tempest rush. the games can be endless, much more than vs legacy dhs where, even though they have similar ms advantage they have to stop and shoot a lot more often.
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Hey raven were you looking at my base all resists or did you miss the extra 370 base holy resist I am stacking vs mie for his blue bell build? (diabloprogress does not show this.)
I am 99% sure your math is wrong. Can you take a snapshot of diabloprogress with your gear and post the url here? I will do the math when I get home.
I have 34% reduce elites gear in the stash top bt belt/boots/storm etc. It can't compare to the ehp I currently have.
I do agree top us monks >>> eu monks though..
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indeed i took into account the res from dprogress which is an average of all the resists (i think), i didn't use the specific holy resistance, you have 1070 arcane/holy if i added correctly, which would add to around 5.5m base ehp vs holy/arcane melee elites with dodge
what you see on dprogress is my base gear, 158k life, ~900 all res, 940 arcane, 7242 armor, 21.04 dodge (550dex), 17 red vs melee on gear which is 16.7 real, 35 red vs elites on gear which is around 30 real, 32 block but we will not take that into account. base crit hit ~132k
with my dex gear vs monks i have 157k life, 902all res, 946 arcane, 6900 armor, 28.9 dodge (945dex), 18 red vs melee which is around 17 real, 35 vs elites - which is 30 real - which adds to about 6.7mil base ehp vs holy/arcane melee elites with dodge and without block, while still having a base crit hit of ~117k vs yours with 90k, and I consider myself average-high geared, not at the very top like vimer is.
i have done ehp calculations for a long time, the best way is to get both high hp, high mitigation and high dodge, but that is very hard. For example vimer has a nice balance of extreme mitigation with high hp but rather low dodge, you have good dodge and good hp but rather low mitigation. You have no reduction vs melee which vs monks matters and most of all you only have 7% red vs elites which matters quite a lot.
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Blue bell is a ranged attack is it not? Why do you say melee.
I don't think the 17% melee reduction counts to your ehp.
Crit is not as good because monks can serenity (or mantra?) the damage away. Also I am using bash to catch monks so you should be measuring dps with aps included.
Please post your dprogress vs monk items so I can do the math.
Where do I seem offended to you? I said I believe your math is wrong, that's not me taking offense I stand by statistics. Let me know if you find out if blue bell is melee
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I think that others have tested and wave of light is considered melee, but I might be wrong, I will test that when i have the chance. A lot of barbs tested and used Thunder God's Vigor belt vs monks for its high reduction vs melee, but i will test myself to see if i can definitely say if WoL is melee or ranged.
http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/darkraven-2885/TheBigGuy/3588495, the setup i usually use vs monks
Dunno about aps being important, they don't stand still while u bash them away and they have 50% or more dodge anyway, bash is nice when it stuns but rend is what kills them.
also do the math for vimer, which is best geared pvp barb in EU
http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/vimer-2697/Artorius/693236
although he probably can add a lot more ehp vs monks
I didn't mean to offend you, I just say that maybe mafia, for ex, is better geared as monk than you are as barb. And I dunno if US monks are better than SIN for example, or tomas, or even mnich... I haven't seen their setups vs barbs.
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Mnich didnt fight against top wd barbs or dhs as i can see. 18-1 i think and left.
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Mnich didnt played against me, insane or vimer ( 1 w/o). He wont be that stats if he stayed to play.
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he got 14-2 vs. non-top players. So dont talk about him with top players.
and he lose by w/o? What a shame imo. ehh...
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I played vs him and I can tell you he can 2 crit shot ANY barb. I played vs a lot of monks, he is at least on same level as Tomas, but with different style. I find it a lot easier to fight against tomas if i take into account cds because he doesnt use tempest rush, the games are more tactical and fast.
I know a lot about EHP and can see what different monks can do, Mnich's blue bells do a lot if they hit and if he gets 2 crits it's over, no matter what ehp barb has. At first he played less safe while i played safe and it was 3-0 for me, after that he started running around more while i chased without considering ignore pain that much, mostly relying on my dodge, eventually he got those lucky crits. But that style is very boring yet it can be very efficient because a crit blue bell easily does more than 50%, no barb can tank 2 crit blue bells from a top monk, barbs have to have either IP ready or dodge at least one of the bells.
I'm pretty sure he could have killed you nofear, dunno about vimer, but if he gets lucky barbs ehp doesnt really matter. It has to do a lot with luck with dodge and crits, one day it could be 5-0 for barb next day 5-0 for monk, it doesnt really say anything, but the matchup is balanced... the only problem is the stalemate potential and being so boring when monks use tempest rush, that is my only problem...
forti, I don't mean to offend you, but a monk like mnich, for example, has around 60% more damage on his crits than you have, I just calculated his crits and yours, you are unfortunately very far from top damage of monks, and there are others with even harder hits than mnich.
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You lnow i got pve gear on me? Right? I have 180k dps woth 1.17 ias. So dunno if my crits are low. Lol
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lol, you mean that in PvP gear you have more dps and even lower ehp? trust me, your crits are low, I played vs you, remember? your gear is very far away from top monks, at least what I saw vs barb.
you maybe have 180k without soj with 1.17aps
mnich has now 162k with 30% soj plus 6% cc to wave of light, with 0.9 atk speed. that is around 210-220 without soj with 0.9 atk speed, that is the equivalent ( of actual hits ) of around 280k paper dps with 1.17aps, not exactly but roughly.
I didn't calculate the exact dps but actual basic crit hits, and he has more than 60% more damage than u.
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175k dos 1.17ias. 26 or 27 soj abd 7 crit chance on wol. I still can 2 crit barbs. But im "low skill". With this i got actually 50k hp, dunno about ehp. V.s rend i dont need more.
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http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/forti-2790/Forti/3105917
check it with this gear pls.
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Thanks for your answers. I saw that few of you don't understood the point of the topic and started a conversation about some crap subjects.
Try to remember that rules should be short and simple, balanced as much as they can be, adequate for all type of players including they wallet.
Maybe try to cut the spam and those unproductive conversations and try to suggest us some kind of rules you like to see for the next season, hmm ?
Next spam will be warned.
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@Green : what actually did you expect to happen?
the majority of players statet their oppionion about the proposed rules (see mostly page 1)
its adressing some stuff that wasnt a problem and not addressing stuff that is
This is bullshit !!!
Dont know about other classes Matchups but those barb rules are a joke.
These rulez are made by one person who didnt even play much all class
etc...
This "spam" about "crap subjects" afterwards is actually a technical conversation and the only way to achieve a ruleset that is accepted by the majority of players.
You just posted a ruleset that you crafted with your friends and did not even give a single reason for any of them (which would be nice, because a lot of them are ... let's say "interesting" ;-) )
one last thing:
adequate for all type of players including they wallet.
afaik rules are made only for top players with top equipment.
best regards
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+1 to Shadow
A lot of the inappropriate spam was caused by the rules posted because they seem to be really out of touch with the current state of PvP. I don't know who are those players that came up with those rules but a lot of them seem to be really weird and clearly not a progression from the season 2 rules.
And of course the rules should be balanced only around top players with top gear, there is absolutely no way to try and balance for all levels, it's already hard to come up with good rules for the top.
My rules proposition for the match-ups regarding barbs.
Barb vs Wizard
- the skill Wrath of the Berserker is banned
Barb vs Demon Hunter
- If the Demon Hunter is using the skill Rapid Fire, all other skills are allowed
- If the Demon Hunter is not using the skill Rapid Fire, Barbarian is allowed to use the skill WarCry only with "no rune" and the skill Relentless is banned
Barb vs Monk
- the skill Wrath of the Berserker is banned
- the skill Sprint is banned
- the skill Tempest Rush is banned
(this is debatable, maybe other barbs and monks are fine just with wotb banned. From my personal experience the match-up is balanced but can turn out into a very long stalemate, that can last a lot more than the 45mins per duel specified on rules)
Barb vs Witch Doctor
- The Witch Doctor can choose between the skills FIre Bats or Hex, he can use one bot not both at the same time
- The Witch Doctor can choose between the skills Spirit Walk and Spirit Vessel, he can use one bot not both at the same time
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Tell me, did anyone of you check those rules on practise ? And why it's so important to know, who were the testers from my crew ? I've got some pm's from ppl I've actually know and they are high in the rank, so whats the problem.
I was expecting pure rules or maybe, pure advice about the most controversial, to find a solution and give it a "new name" just to make people happy and get some more players.
There was a lot of posts including the spam, where was something that we maybe can use, but nobody wasnt ready to copy and paste the all for a one piece and make the holy graal.
So my propose, if you feel so strong with your english skills, you're well geared and got some experiance in brawling, feel free to pm me about recruiting you to the new rule dev team. I'll be happy to work with you in private forum where are straight and essential posts from people that actually know each charakter very well.
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Dark Raven,
Banning sprint and tempest rush is not good idea.
Barb cant chase non tempest rush monk, 1 rend you land, and monk is 20 yards from you. And you have to hope to land crit hit.
Green, top ranked players cant give this skills balance.
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@ nofear atm monks are FASTER than barbs, if ur worried about not beeing able to catch a monk that is only as fast as u are how do u intend to catch them when they are faster? As it is now as long as the monk plays save u cant win as a barb they can just run away all day long and u have absolutely no chance to kill them. If both classes are reduced to their basic runspeed u will have a much higher chance at killing them especialy with skills like charge and so on at ur disposal.
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Tell me, did anyone of you check those rules on practise ?
actually there is some testing and private brawling going on apart from the ranking.
and i can tell you that the proposed barb vs wizard rules are completely crap.
the rules we had before (no wotb, rest allowed) were fine and accepted by most of the ppl here, so why do you propose to nerf barbs again ? (hence it would be interesting to know who of your friends came up with that)
in your proposal you address some issues that are fine actually and did not need a rework. so it would be nice to hear what problems you have with the current ruleset. On the other hand you would create some new severe problems with some of the rules like indicated before by other players (page1)
I mean you really wanna ban legacy nat set? so imagined you kick out legacy dh's that cannot affort a propper new set? o_O
Suggestion: I suppose you to state a proper reason for any change in rules you propose instead of just posting a new ruleset
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@nofear, if you can't catch non tr monks without Sprint, how do you catch tr monks when you use sprint if tr gives more ms advantage than sprint?
As me and baharoth said before, barbs have many ways to close distance, charge, leap, threatening shout ms rune, ancient spear maybe, stuns like bash etc.
Actually the no Sprint no tr rule I think is more detrimental to monks, I didn't expect barbs to oppose it.
@green, I don't think it's a matter of testing for a lot of the proposed rules in first post.
For example, as shadow (top wiz) said, if barb vs wiz was already ok, as results and testing showed, what is the possible reasoning of nerfing barbs further?
Why don't all the players that helped you made those rules post the feedback of testing and reasoning of rules here, or make a new thread where only rule developers and known top players are allowed to post.
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@Shadow88
actually there is some testing and private brawling going on apart from the ranking.
and i can tell you that the proposed barb vs wizard rules are completely crap.
I'm not sure if you can compare ranked and private/public game. Do you always try to play at 100% in a private/public game? Does your oponent play at 100% in a private/public game?
so why do you propose to nerf barbs again ?
It's funny to see a wizard defending a barb (especially after first season of the league during which barbs were basically destroying wizards) :) Anyway ... the whole idea of the rules (and I'm not talking about those particular rules, but rules in general) was to encourage more wizards to join the league (at least that's how I see it). There are only 2 (yes 2! one with score 4-13) active wizards in both leagues (US and EU) atm.
the rules we had before (no wotb, rest allowed) were fine and accepted by most of the ppl here
When you say "accepted by most" what do you exactly mean? Like I said ... there are only 2 active wizards in both leagues. By "most" you mean 2?
Besides tell me pls how many wizards will join the new league when they notice that someone like MoKKaL (have you checked his gear lately?) left the previous league with total score 4:6 (wins : defeats) / vs barbs total score 1:2 (wins : defeats) and rules haven't changed since then?
Suggestion: I suppose you to state a proper reason for any change in rules you propose instead of just posting a new ruleset
+1
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Barbs vs Wizards is close fight now since WotB is banned. I mean even this fight is in favor of the wizard, maybe like 55/45 since barb need some proper gear ( high dex or cc reduction).
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Mokkal himself will tell you that the match-up is perfectly fine, not here you need to boost wizard but in other match-ups.
Mokkal was the only one to take 3 games from Vimer, other than Insane the wd. Ximae defeated Nofear (currently no2 in league) in the last game they played. Ximae said he has balanced games vs Vimer too.
I tested with mokkal, shadow and ximae a lot in 1.07, ptr and 1.08. Mokkal was the most efficient with his build, especially vs hota because of high dodge and high life regen.
It may not seem so, but the match-up is pretty skill intensive for both sides, after 1.08 i got completely destroyed by mokkal until i started playing a bit smarter and having more balanced duels. Also the using of high dodge vs RoF was something that i tested a lot even before 1.08 PTR and proved very efficient vs CM builds.
Mokkal even won 2 rounds vs Nofear in a PvP tournament with WotB allowed... I know that Nofear is probably a bit less geared as barb than Mokkal is geared as Wiz, but they are close and both have very good PvP experience.
Yes Mokkal has nice gear, maybe the best here in D3cl but there are others with better gear, but not better skills. For example I played vs Stalker, in his pvp gear i think he had 330k dps + Soj and 100k hp. Both more dps and more ehp than Mokkal yet it was pretty one sided for me. If he would have Mokkal's experience he would destroy any barb on server.
The match-up is not that easy to figure out, it took wizards a while to figure out an effective build revolving around critical mass ( i think shadow was one of the first, if not the very first to use it). Still playing against rend or hota means a different play-style and skills, also the gear choice can be very different (dodge vs hota). Not enough wizards have enough experience in this match-up and of course they can get frustrated.
If someone saw my games vs Stalker it would say, yeah wizards are so bad vs barb because a wiz with top gear lost very one sided to a high geared barb (but not absolute top)... when in fact it was just a problem of experience, skill usage, movement around the map etc.
Don't know why you would want to change the rules when the best Wizards in D3cl from last seasons will probably tell you that it is perfectly fine (Mokkal, Shadow88, Ximae)
But if you ask them they will tell you exactly what are the match-ups where they feel helpless and where a boost would be needed.
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i just left this 2nd league, because i was somehow pissed one day - and tbh ... its pretty empty lately.
thats why i left - and not because of some wizz vs barb MU rules :)
barb vs wizz is really balanced with just non-wotb rule (if not the most balanced MU in this whole game ^^)
edit: to tell you my horror MU's - maybe i can tell you more tomorrow after the weekly VC tournament.
yes, i got some new pieces lately - found some new strats - and want to test them today :)
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Yes Mokkal has nice gear, maybe the best here in D3cl but there are others with better gear, but not better skills. For example I played vs Stalker, in his pvp gear i think he had 330k dps + Soj and 100k hp. Both more dps and more ehp than Mokkal yet it was pretty one sided for me. If he would have Mokkal's experience he would destroy any barb on server.
Here we go again. Do you remember what you said to me before the launch of the second league? You said that MoKKaL will destroy any barb in this league.
BTW I need to point out the way you compare gear. More HP means that this Stalker dude (I don't know who he is) has more EHP? Seriously? You really think it is that simple? How much all res / armor / elite dmg reduction / melee dmg reduction / ranged dmg reduction does Stalker have? Does he stack dex? DPS buffed / unbuffed? How much raw dmg / as? Does he have AP issues? And how about life per second or health globe/potion bonus?
i just left this 2nd league, because i was somehow pissed one day - and tbh ... its pretty empty lately.
thats why i left - and not because of some wizz vs barb MU rules :)
barb vs wizz is really balanced with just non-wotb rule (if not the most balanced MU in this whole game ^^)
edit: to tell you my horror MU's - maybe i can tell you more tomorrow after the weekly VC tournament.
yes, i got some new pieces lately - found some new starts - and want to test them today :)
It would be great to hear it, but I think you missed the point of my post.
Anyway ... the whole idea of the rules (and I'm not talking about those particular rules, but rules in general) was to encourage more wizards to join the league (at least that's how I see it). There are only 2 (yes 2! one with score 4-13) active wizards in both leagues (US and EU) atm.
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well ... tbh ... i didnt even see alot of other pvping wizzards - so if there arent any more - u cant get more into the league.
and its not just a wizzard problem - just look at the numbers in genereal.
300+ in season 1
~30 NOW in season 2
i think those numbers are pretty self-explanatory.
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@MoKKaL
well ... tbh ... i didnt even see alot of other pvping wizzards - so if there arent any more - u cant get more into the league.
Did you play with every wizard in this game?
and its not just a wizzard problem - just look at the numbers in genereal.
300+ in season 1
~30 NOW in season 2
You are right. There is a significant drop in the number of players. There definitely wasn't 300+ active players in season 1, but still the number was bigger. Maybe they didn't join the current league, because they didn't like the rules? Or maybe they are waiting for 1.1? Or maybe .... ? I can only guess here.
But that's not the point ... compare the number of active wizards to the number of active barbs, monks, etc.. The same problem was during the first league.
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no i didnt play with every single wizz in the game ...
but if even season 1 there werent that many wizzards here - and now neither ... well maybe there arent that many wizzards playing pvp?
and imo u wont get more ppl playing pvp atm - i think blizzard has to get 1.1 out before more ppl like taking part in the pvp scene.
whatever - we are a bit off topic here (and i tend to do that somewhow ^^) - so ill keep me out of this again :D
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@MoKKaL
but if even season 1 there werent that many wizzards here - and now neither ... well maybe there arent that many wizzards playing pvp?
Maybe there aren't many wizards interested in PvP or maybe there are, but they know/think they don't stand a chance and they simply wait until something will change, something like rules. We can only guess.
edit: to tell you my horror MU's - maybe i can tell you more tomorrow after the weekly VC tournament.
Any conclusions after the tournament?
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@Dilavo, your interest for PvP is quite admirable, considering especially that you admited yourself, if I remember correctly, you sold your PvP gear before 1.08 :)
You asked me about stalker, he is the best geared wiz I have seen so far on EU, there may be others. In his pve gear he has 500+ k unbuffed dps. In his PvP gear at first he used skorn and had, if I remember correctly, 250k unbuffed plus soj. With spear and source I think he had 300k plus soj. But that's what he told me in game, I couldn't check if those were real unbuffed values
About ehp... I know everything about ehp :), I can easily reach one of the best ehp scores in eu ( and real PvP, vs elites, ehp) please don't tell me I don't know how to judge ehp :)
1. For the 2 players I was talking about, both using high dps and soj, a lot of gear slots are fixed legendary items. If one has 60k hp and one 100k, he will have more ehp... How do you get 250k plus soj with Bt set or stacking armor and all res on all slots?
2. I could easily see how much a crit hota did to him compared to other high dps wizards, I needed at least one more crit.
3. The way that ehp is constructed is another thing. Because vs hota lower ehp but with high dodge can work better, as mokkal has. But vs rend you need raw ehp not dodge ehp.
Overall that kind of raw ehp can perform better because it's more versatile.
As barb I have the same problem vs monk. If with my extreme mitigation and 150-160k hp a crit blue bell does, for example, 110k damage, to survive 2 crit bells I would need ~220k hp with same mitigation, which is extremely hard to get without dropping a lot of dps.
However, if I get to 40% dodge ( with wc) while monk has 50% cc, I can get to a point where the chance of getting 2 crit bells in a row is extremely small... that's where tr comes because if monk runs half an hour ( literally ) and stops from time to time to hit 2 bells he will eventually get those extremely lucky 2 shots, but that's the most boring way to play and the main reason why I quit d3cl.
The same is applied to wiz vs hota, if a crit hota does, let's say in an extreme example, 60k damage, it may be better and cheaper to get 65k hp with high dodge and high regen than to get 125hp and try to tank 2 crit shots.
I was saying that if stalker, or other wiz with access to gear worth multiple tens of billions, gets the PvP experience of mokkal, knowing how to properly gear for this matchup, the games will be pretty one sided.
I think we really talked too much about one of the most balanced, and fun, match-ups in D3 PvP. Most barbs and wizards are happy with the no-wotb being only rule.
Making rule propositions to change this is absurd, while there are plenty of imbalaced match-ups we should focus on.
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Stalker
www.d3up.com/b/278413
Dps vs elites 353k with 1.27aps
Ehp 797k without dodge 979 with dodge
Mokkal
www.d3up.com/b/739550
Dps 274k with 1.41aps
Ehp 744k without dodge, 1036k with dodge
With similar ehp stalker has 30% more dps with lower aps, which is better vs barbs from what I have seen so far. His ehp is better vs rend while worse vs hota. mokkal has more life per sec which matters a lot.
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Do you always try to play at 100% in a private/public game? Does your oponent play at 100% in a private/public game?
When i test in private duels - mostly yes (at least i try^^). u dont?
It's funny to see a wizard defending a barb (especially after first season of the league during which barbs were basically destroying wizards
The real funny thing is actually that this was only because of a lack of knowledge. When i joined this test league and won vs every barb that i dueled the wizards i know (basically ximae & mokkal) began to think different and now were able to kill barbs that have been "destroying" them before. (i defend barbs here, because i know a lot of them, and i somehow felt sorry for them when they were nerfed hard back then)
the rof/ cm/ stun build i invented is actually pretty strong vs barbs if you know how to use it, but yet i still see alot of wizards using magic missiles or blizzard vs barbs.....
you ask why we have such a lack of wizards in the league here. well i can tell you at least what i think might be the reason (or at least some of them)
wizards are veeery play skill dependant. the problem is, you are dead by one single mistake. this issue makes the class rather beginner unfriendly. compare that to a wd for example. i see some noob wds very often in pubs. they can just cast bats/haunt and basically kill everyone in the game. even a bad wd can cause severe trouble if you get hit.
ask yourself: how do get most ppl into pvp? right, they join a public brawl game with their pve char for fun to see how it looks like. now imagine you join a game with your super duper wizard and get ass-kicked like hell in the first game. would you
a) join another game and try to improve your skill or
b) just think "pvp sucks", "blizzard sucks", "i wont play like this"
?
indeed i see some new wizards very often in pub games. they join, shoot some arcane orbs, blizzards and place a hydra maybe. then they get raped by the other 3 players (because: "hey, there is a wizard! - easy kill!"), and were never seen again!
so tell me how these wizards should join a league?!
i guess the most players in season 1 just wanted to test pvp.
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There are only players who really like pvp. We just need wait for more. You never know if some good wizz can join.
By tapatalk 4
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@DarkRaven
@Dilavo, your interest for PvP is quite admirable, considering especially that you admited yourself, if I remember correctly, you sold your PvP gear before 1.08 :)
Yeah, that's right. That's why I never propose any specific changes to the current rules. I simply don't play ranked PvP anymore.
You asked me about stalker, he is the best geared wiz I have seen so far on EU, there may be others. In his pve gear he has 500+ k unbuffed dps. In his PvP gear at first he used skorn and had, if I remember correctly, 250k unbuffed plus soj. With spear and source I think he had 300k plus soj. But that's what he told me in game, I couldn't check if those were real unbuffed values
Yeah, his gear is really good, but IMO it's not well balanced (I will go back to that in a moment).
About ehp... I know everything about ehp :), I can easily reach one of the best ehp scores in eu ( and real PvP, vs elites, ehp) please don't tell me I don't know how to judge ehp :)
That's really impressive. It seems then that you just made a mistake when you were calculating MoKKaL's EHP.
I was saying that if stalker, or other wiz with access to gear worth multiple tens of billions, gets the PvP experience of mokkal, knowing how to properly gear for this matchup, the games will be pretty one sided.
I think we really talked too much about one of the most balanced, and fun, match-ups in D3 PvP. Most barbs and wizards are happy with the no-wotb being only rule.
So at top level gear it is one-sided or balanced? I'm confused.
Making rule propositions to change this is absurd, while there are plenty of imbalaced match-ups we should focus on.
You won against every wizard you played in the current league 5:0. This is balance for you? When I look at your scores against wizards I see that you didn't play even one single close duel.
Stalker
www.d3up.com/b/278413
Dps vs elites 353k with 1.27aps
Ehp 797k without dodge 979 with dodge
Mokkal
www.d3up.com/b/739550
Dps 274k with 1.41aps
Ehp 744k without dodge, 1036k with dodge
With similar ehp stalker has 30% more dps with lower aps, which is better vs barbs from what I have seen so far. His ehp is better vs rend while worse vs hota. mokkal has more life per sec which matters a lot.
I'm not sure what gear is MoKKaL using against barbs. My guess is 12% ms against barbs using shield and 24% ms against barbs using 2-handed weapon. We would need to ask him though. I'm also not sure what gear is Stalker using against barbs. I don't think he is playing with such low HP/sec. IMO with such gear he wouldn't stand a chance in just a bit longer fight. Anyway I will compare the data you gave me.
MoKKaL
24% ms
DPS (from d3up):
total DPS against elites: 274 710.99
as: 1.415
cc: 52%
crit dmg: 469%
raw DPS: 194 131.33
EHP:
all res: 943.7
armor: 3.814
elite dmg reduction: 7%
HP: 84 281.58
total dmg reduction against elites on arena: 92,63078714%
total EHP against elites on arena: 1 143 698,541
Dodge:
28,2%
Life regeneration:
Life per second: 1 020
effective Life per second: 13 841
Stalker
12% ms
DPS (from d3up):
total DPS against elites: 353 252.08
as: 1.27
cc: 41.5% (his cc with RoF 48,5 and that means his total and raw DPS with RoF is even higher)
crit dmg: 545%
raw DPS against elites: 278 151,24
EHP:
all res: 853.3
armor: 3,865
HP: 96,582.64
total dmg reduction against elites on arena: 91,52505096%
total EHP against elites on arena: 1 139 625,023
Dodge:
18.52%
Life regeneration:
Life per second: 297
effective Life per second: 3 504
Conclusions:
They both have similar EHP against elites (Stalker has slightly lower). MoKKaL has 12% more ms, much more higher dodge and much more higher effective life per second. Stalker has much more higher DPS (total and raw). They both have definitely top level gear, but if I was about to choose from those 2 sets I would take MoKKaL's gear. It's simply more balanced.
@Shadow88
When i test in private duels - mostly yes (at least i try^^). u dont?
Well yea, I don't, at least most of the time (I might be the only one though).
The real funny thing is actually that this was only because of a lack of knowledge. When i joined this test league and won vs every barb that i dueled the wizards i know (basically ximae & mokkal) began to think different and now were able to kill barbs that have been "destroying" them before. (i defend barbs here, because i know a lot of them, and i somehow felt sorry for them when they were nerfed hard back then)
the rof/ cm/ stun build i invented is actually pretty strong vs barbs if you know how to use it, but yet i still see alot of wizards using magic missiles or blizzard vs barbs.....
MoKKaL lost a fight (keep in mind what gear he has) against N0F3aR in VC Tournament yestarday. This indicates that there is still something wrong in this match-up. I don't know anything about that tournament though so that's why I asked for his conclusions in my last post.
you ask why we have such a lack of wizards in the league here. [...] wizards are veeery play skill dependant.
What about dh's? Aren't they skill dependant? Compare pls the number of active dh's to the number of active wizards.
so tell me how these wizards should join a league?!
Here I have a question for you. You played in a test league, but for some reason you didn't join the actual league. Why is that? Do you play in some other ranked leagues/tournaments?
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you sure love quotes :)
yeah mokkal's gear is more balanced because he has more experience but I'm sure that balance can be achieved with even more dps.
How exactly did I do a mistake? I just said that vs me stalker had 100k+ hp probably losing a bit of dps. Also stalker does have more ehp, even with those d3up stats, if barb uses rend, like a lot of barbs do.
the matchup is balanced at the current top level, like mokkal, shadow and ximae, but more dps is achievable and at that point it can become one sided for wiz, if they gear correctly vs barb.
I didn't play vs mokkal in D3cl, the 5-0 vs ximae was closer than it looks, after that he defeated nofear.
wotb is allowed in vc tournament, dunno why, but even with wotb it was only 3-2 for nofear in a previous tournament.
I'm not quite sure what are you trying to achieve here. You said you have no PvP gear so you basically didn't do any PvP vs barb in 1.08, you ask the opinion of top wizards, Shadow and Mokkal already told you that the match-up is fine and not vs Barb is the problem of Wiz. (I'm sure Ximae would say the same). What conclusion do you want?
this is already far too much talk about a balanced matchup, barbs are ok with the rule, wiz are ok with it, leave it be.
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@DarkRaven
How exactly did I do a mistake? I just said that vs me stalker had 100k+ hp probably losing a bit of dps. Also stalker does have more ehp, even with those d3up stats, if barb uses rend, like a lot of barbs do.
I give up ... 1 143 698,541 (MoKKaL's EHP without dodge on arena against elites) > 1 139 625,023 (Stalker's EHP without dodge on arena against elites).
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first of all ill tell you why i got some new gear lately.
i tended to have less ehp/dps/dodge but a TON more lreg.
previous i was on like 2500-3000 lreg but changed that to a more dps/ehp/dodge build with just 1020 lreg atm.
and yes - i somehow miss this lreg.
but imo its not pretty fair from blizzards side - ALL chars got a MUCH better lreg than wizzards - im waiting for some lreg buff for wizzards - so my choice was to get general better non-lreg gear now and hope for a lreg buff from blizzard :)
my gear overall is pretty decent (still not the best! - i really want to underline this ^^) to the point for balance.
i also prefer ...
- higher mitigation over more hp (lreg + pots benefit from that alot)
- dodge over hp to some point (wanna reach 1000 dex (30% dodge) and keep my current dps/ehp) ... but all over 25% dodge is pretty decent imo
- AVG (!!!) damage over actual DPS - thats due to wizzard skills - theres one pvp skill that benefits from more IAS - Ray of Frost - but this is also just to some point, because with more IAS its costing more AP/sec and u will run out of AP while bursting the barb down)
the MU from my pov:
vs Barb:
the only primary skill thats working good for dmg is Ray of Frost - all other pvp skills deal too few damage to the tank class
in combination with some cc (frost nova + Wave of Force) thats a really good build to burst damage down "quickly".
Matches still take some time :)
against Rend - Mirror images HAVE to be up to protect u against a rend crit - on the other hand - a non crit rend is pretty harmless tbh
against HotA dodge is the pure winner - its so much better than actual just (e)hp
against WotB ... well ... its pretty luck based somehow
u have to deal damage AND be prepared to always get away as fast as possible.
earlier i played with 2cc's + Teleport (calamity) which worked almost too good against non-wotb-barbs
but VC torunament allows a barb to use wotb against wizzards so i adopted.
my current build is just 1 cc (WoF) and teleport (Wormhole) to get away from an activated wotb.
the luck (or skill too) comes into play that u have to react pretty fast to an activated wotb barb.
u need MI (against rend) + teleport + even Storm Armor (scramble ... for more movement speed ... so u deal less dmg overall) to avoid the barb for 15sec.
conclusion: non wotb is okish (wizzard favored)
wotb its too much favored for the barb
vs DH:
i found a pretty neat build against "low" ehp chars (imo thats ALL other chars than barbs).
a really strong buffed blizzard.
thats Magic Weapon, Familiar + 2sec Blizzard SOJ
in d3cl there arent any healing skills allowed against wizzards which makes the match almost balanced imo (no 4% lreg (healing station + broodling) + battle scars)
but theres another problem which was introduced with 108 - Rapid Fire
Its almost the same as WD bats - the dmg is just too op :)
vs Monk:
almost same as DH (dex classes) - strong blizzard wins.
i even cut Mirror images for a 2nd armor spell (frost armor - jagged ice) to switch wherever i am
for example ... storm armor whenever im ranged - and if i see the monk coming towards me ill switch to jagged ice so that the monk blows himself off.
in the meantime blizzard is doing very well to keep the monk on range
vs Wizzard:
same ... my new favorite build is a strong blizzard - i will test it further but loving it atm :)
vs WD:
WD as a class is really OP in general - you all know that, so i dont need to comment too much here.
i didnt have a chance with my new gear and new blizzard strategy to test against some WD - so i cant even say anything here anyway - BUT i think that a high-dps blizzard is strong against WDs too :)
@ vc torunament yesterday:
well ... there were few ppl participating and i had a non-wotb barb as first enemy - and won ^^
After that i played aginst a DH (who won the tournament btw) and was a bit pissed after the fight
during the week i played some matches against venxosiz who is a really nice guy and pretty decent DH aswell - we had some really good and BALANCED fights - no 4%lreg + no battle scars + no rapid fire ...
well, to come back to the tournament ... against the DH i was playing i almost won the first duel,
BUT he popped aid station and used battle scars and was back to full life REALLY fast.
in addition he used rapid fire --> i was chanceless in the end.
my last duel was aginst nofear (with wotb).
tbh ... nofear is "THE" EU barb with the most willing to play and get experience atm.
we often duel for fun and "training", so we know each other pretty good - also our fights are always even ... the only change in this tournament is ... wotb!
ONE (i repeat ... one) mistake by my side (no images rdy ... teleport not rdy ...) and im dead, because i cant get away from a wotb then - a crit rend (he tends to play rend lately) while wotb is active ... and its over :D
nevertheless i even won the first fight - so it ended 3-1 for him :D
conclusion to the pvp in general atm ... i like to play with the few pvp-ppl i know - and its even fun to play VC tournament (even though i lose against good ppl ^^).
but before blizzard doesnt change a thing - i dont think that the pvp community will grow - its just too unbalanced in the end (een though its okish balanced for that that blizz didnt touch a thing!) and theres also some missing features like 2v2, spectator mode, scores, ladders, ...
hm ... got a bit long ... this post ... sry about that and i hope i didnt write too much nonsense, because i wrote what i was thinking without any much structure behind it ^^
still read it twice for spelling errors :)
regards
MoKK
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Actually Mokk, you make 1 mistake and i kill you, when i am using wotb. But 1 my mistake - and wotb is waste for nothing. You did very good build against WotB, so 1 single mistake and you escape alive. After that my hero is much easier to be killed, since i use soj + more dps/less ehp. So casting WotB needs preparation, very good timing and map orientation. Not so easy against decent wizzard as all say.
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MoKKaL lost a fight[...]
wotb changes whole MU as indicated before
What about dh's? Aren't they skill dependant? Compare pls the number of active dh's to the number of active wizards.
didnt say dhs arent skill dependant or anything like that. but for the dh example i think they are more straight forward. a newcomer that has no pvp experience would nevertheless think of using smoke screen and also think of using impale. these skills alone give you 1) a good dmg output und 2) more important: a way to escape dmg. as i said before, new wizards dont even know what setup to use and fail right from the start. i claim that dhs are more beginner friendly than wizards.
Here I have a question for you. You played in a test league, but for some reason you didn't join the actual league. Why is that? Do you play in some other ranked leagues/tournaments?
I dont play much pvp atm, thats right. maybe more after i have done my exams at university which are taking place atm (wish me luck^^)
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@nofear - thats why i wrote its luck (and skill) dependend :)
if i can get u low (luck here because of crits on both sides + dodge) while teleport and mirror images are rdy i should be fine.
if i cant get u low "fast" enough and/or need to use one of those 2 skills its getting hard for me, because u know when to pop wotb - when one or both od these skills are on cd (here comes the player-skill into play)
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before noone is writing anything about rules ...
here are my GENERAL and "against Wizz" rule ideas:
Barbarian
- In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill “Wrath of the Berserker” with rune "Insanity" is not allowed.
Demon Hunter
- The Demon Hunter is not allowed to play the “bunker – style”. This style is defined by laying “Turrets” and/or “Spike Traps” and not coming out from the range of these traps.
- In duels versus the “Wizard” the Demon Hunter can chose only one of these three skills: “Preparation” with rune “Battle Scars” // “Sentry” with rune “Aid Station” // Passive skill “Brooding”.
- In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill “Rapid Fire" is not allowed.
Witch Doctor
- In duels versus the “Wizard” the Witch Doctor can chose only one of these three skills: “Corpse Spiders” with rune “Leaping Spiders” // “Haunt” // “Spirit Barrage”.
- In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill “Firebats” is not allowed.
General Rules
- The legit pvp rules are: Fair play and good manners.
- Duels are held in 'Inferno' difficulty.
- Duels are played with best of 9.
- Each round is limited to 5 minutes - starting from the first ‘go’ from both sides.
- In case of a stalemate (at the end of 5 minutes during a round), each player unequips any 6 items of their choice and the round will be restarted.
- After a round, players may leave the game to refresh their cooldowns.
- Players are allowed to change gear and/or skills before and after each round. This has to be announced to the other player.
- Players are not allowed to change gear and/or skills during a round. A player who demonstrably (screenshots / video) violates this rule will get banned from this league!
- The small island inside the scorched chapel area is forbidden ground. Actively using this island will result in loss of rounds and/or the complete match.
- You cannot enter town or leave the game during a round. If that happens the person who enters town or leaves the game looses the round.
- We expect the duels to be active combat. Players must actively engage their opponent at least once every 30 seconds. Repeatingly avoiding the duel will result in a loss.
- Vanishing Dye is not allowed.
- Round(s) resulting in a draw count as +1 round for both sides. (i.e. 2:3 --> 3:4). If draws put you past 9 rounds you continue until there is a winner (it will count as 5:4 win).
- The winner of the duel must stay in screen from opponent once won.
- You must play your duels using the character you signed up with for the League or Tournament.
regards
MoKK
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@mokkal: same goes for you: plz indicate rules you want to change from the original ( url (http://forum.d3cl.com/index.php/topic,1649.msg39543.html#msg39543) ) with a reason for that. :)
for example we just agreed that wiz vs barb is fine and now you want wotb?
from the first view you strengthened most chars vs wizard compared to before. reason for that? i did not see any wiz roflstomping the league, thats why im asking :D
btw i have a proposal for the general part:
- Vanishing Dye is not allowed.
plz allow vanish dye... i hate the look of my mempo :D.
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Barbarian
OLD:
- In duels versus the “Wizard” is not allowed to use the skill “Wrath of the Berserker”.
NEW:
- In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill “Wrath of the Berserker” with rune "Insanity" is not allowed.
Information:
Barbs have no cc breaker – allowing the wizard to have 2 cc’s (PLUS Mirror Images that can stun/freeze too) is over the top. Id even use Teleport (Calamity) then which would favour the wizard in all kind of ways.
So we could allow the wizz to just use 1 cc (to chose from WoF and Frost Nova) or allow the barb to have a 90sec CD cc breaker. Wotb is just OP because of 100% damage increase rune – all other runes are not THAT op – the barb bis just gettin a 10% crit chance buff for 15seconds (offensive wise) – thats all.
In that case the wizard is forced to have some defensive skills aswell (like no Calamity, maybe just 1 cc) and cant go pure glass cannon.
Its just an idea of which i think this MU is still balanced.
Demon Hunter
OLD:
- The Demon Hunter is not allowed to play the “bunker – style”. This style is defined by laying “Turrets” and/or “Spike Traps” and not coming out from the range of these traps.
- In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill “Companion” is not allowed.
- In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill “Preparation” with rune “Battle Scars” is not allowed.
- In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill “Sentry” with rune “Aid Station” is not allowed.
- In duels versus the “Wizard” the passive skill “Brooding” is not allowed.
NEW:
- The Demon Hunter is not allowed to play the “bunker – style”. This style is defined by laying “Turrets” and/or “Spike Traps” and not coming out from the range of these traps.
- In duels versus the “Wizard” the Demon Hunter can chose only one of these three skills: “Preparation” with rune “Battle Scars” // “Sentry” with rune “Aid Station” // Passive skill “Brooding”.
- In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill “Rapid Fire" is not allowed.
Information:
Allowing the DH to have 1 healing spell doesnt sound op to me. Allowing the DH to use 3! Healing spells makes the DH unkillable for wizards.
Companion is a neat protection for the DH which is imo ok, since the wizard has Storm Armor.
Storm Armor 2shots like almost all DH which on the other hand _IS_ OP.
Rapid Fire in general is an OP skill which just should be banned completly.
Monk
OLD:
- In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill “Cyclone Strike” is not allowed.
- In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill “Dashing Strike” is not allowed.
- In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill “Fists of Thunder" with rune “Thunderclap” is not allowed.
NEW:
- nothing
Information:
Imo with Teleport (Wormhole) the wizards has good chances to stay away from Monks.
Storm Armor + a good Blizzard damages the Monk pretty hard.
Ice Armor (Jagged Ice) is really OP against Monks – good usage of just this armor alone and the monks kills himself ^^
On the other hand ... Monks 1- or 2-shot wizzards.
From my latest battles no bans seemed balanced to me
Witch Doctor
OLD:
- In duels versus the “Wizard” can use only one of the skills “Corpse Spiders” with rune “Leaping Spiders”, “Firebats”, “Haunt” and “Spirit Barrage”
- In duels versus the “Wizard” is not allowed to use the skill “Horrify”.
- In duels versus the “Wizard” is not allowed to use the passive skill “Blood Ritual”.
NEW:
- In duels versus the “Wizard” the Witch Doctor can chose only one of these three skills: “Corpse Spiders” with rune “Leaping Spiders” // “Haunt” // “Spirit Barrage”.
- In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill “Firebats” is not allowed.
- new: In duels versus the “Wizard” the Witch Doctor can chose only one of these two skills: "Spirit Walk" with rune "Healing Journey" // Passive "Blood Ritual".
Information:
Horrify and Hex are at least avoidable. As wizard u shouldnt get too close anyway.
Banning fire bats (THE Op skill atm) seems fair – and restircting the WD to just use 1 of the other op skills seems ok to me aswell.
Why no Blood Ritual ban? - i added another rule here.
BTW: If anyone wants to test (escpecially monks, dh's and WD's) just add me! --> mokkal#2362
EDIT: I need to add this:
from the first view you strengthened most chars vs wizard compared to before. reason for that? i did not see any wiz roflstomping the league, thats why im asking
what i learned from VC torunaments is ... to adopt!
there arent any balancing rules given atm which is bad for wizards at first.
But the more you play against these "OP" chars the more you learn to find a way against them.
Some Examples
- i managed to beat NoFear a couple of times with 100% damage increase Wotb.
- ive beaten Inferno (good barb) 3:0 with 100% wotb rune
- i almost won at least 1 duel against the winner of the last tournament (DH). Imo he roflstomped me in the end just because he could use too many healing spells + one OP damage skill. as i said before - i tested with VEN and we found a pretty balanced fight in the end with minor bans.
- tbh i still miss some fights against WD ... but imo i THINK that my new strategy works wonder compared to the playsytle i had before.
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wow more movement here than in the league itself!
yeah i think wiz vs barb is fine as it is right now as i find its more decided by good/bad play than anything else as i can win/loose vs the same player with same gears just depending on how we play.... i havent played any barb i dont feel i couldnt have beat if i had played better.
About wotb, i really dont have the experience against it to really comment, only time i played against it was vs vimer in vc and got stomped 3-0, but i really screwed up, wrong gearing in first round (didnt inspect him) then screwed all my cds as everytime he activated wotb i didnt have anything ready. need more experience vs it . What i can say is just going like insane dps also works (like 320k dps with soj buffed) as barbs really melt and u dont even need so much cc so that could even be a viable option vs wotb.
i have to agree with mokkal on most stuff, like no rules vs monk as i never felt monks needed any nerfing vs wiz its really mostly rng in that match up, and those small hitting stuns from monk can be easily countered with jagged ice.
wiz vs dh i agree with mokkals rules but i think it needs some tweaking though, as with my testings with ven and med the most balanced results were when we banned chemburn as well. So stacking dodge is usefull as if u dodge the impale u still get dotted, so it doesnt even trigger illusionist, and ur stuck with a big bleed. yeah im another dex stacker. Same with nats helm fear proc if u get feared u eat up the whole bleed. That would allow to use boar so the dh has some sa tanking capabilities and would actually balance the match up in the lower levels too.
now wizs bane the wd, i really dont know how to balance that as i think mokkals rules are still gona fall short. The problem with wd is that in essence its very similar to wiz but it does everything better. better defensive passives, better l reg, better cc, more range, has dots and better %damage in skills, so its pretty hard to balance around that.
Bats by them selves arent that much of an issue as u can abuse their short range, whats problematics with them is any sort of cc will leave u sold out, or if they can be paired with longer range spells ur in trouble too as u cant abuse the range then.
The problem with haunt is that it has longer range than any wiz spell, goes through walls and can be spammed so he can just haunt u till u remove the dot and then haunt u again till it crits and its over.
Spirit barrage should be ok expect for the fact that the wd can abuse shooting behind cover so u get hit while u cant hit him.
hex is annoying but really it isnt an issue by itself but horrify is as u cant do anything about it.
And then u have the fact that a wd can do more damage than u using a shield and being so much tankier. It really feels hopeless.
Another issue is the pets as they make storm armour useless... but then i dont mind switching armour spell to a more defensive one, but maybe banning them could also help baalncing out, but not sure anyways.
as for the rules I would add to mokkals, ban horrify. get some wd at similar gear level and test the crap out of the rules and tweak from there. As im sure with that its still going to be imbalanced.
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in my opinion, after doing some pvp test with my friends by monk.
vs. barb - I'm unskilled, but 184k dps with 1.17ias + 27% soj +4% belt + mantra and I still lose 5-0 vs. barbs. yes, I can tr and run for ever. but it makes no sens for me. I cant stand to get one crit rend without loosing many dps. For me (and possible only for me) it is unbalanced as long as barb is cheaper the high ehp geared.
vs. wizz - nothink to ban. Very balanced and good duels.
vs. dh - I forgot many things how to play against. But this is balanced vs. new nat. If we talk vs. old nat (legacy). it this unbalanced.
vs. wd - really? spider 9 pets + firebats + hex + spirit barrage. All about. Wasting my time, I put 5-0 for most wd even without fight.
I think no tr no spirit vs. barb is not enough. There shoult be rulez like:
- no tempest rush for monk
- no spirit for barb
- barbs are not allowed to use shield
- ban blue bell for monks (or even whole skill)
vs. legacy nat there should be another rulez than vs. new nat dh. Hard to say what kind of, but no traps can solve it a bit. Or even ban all legacy nat set.
vs. wd...
- no pets (Including spiders)
- no hunt (really lame skills vs. every class)
- allowed only one skill: hex or fire bats but not both.
Firebats make me less problems than hunt (meyby only me..?) hunt got high range auto aim and high dmg - bats got short distance. The real problem is with pets - I have to attack or spiders will kill me. sss is useless because of them, so we got only bell. high ehp wd can get 2 crits I think... spirit walk + spirit vessel. Every one know wd is totally lame class.
monk vs. wizz
I cant understand the currently rulez. Really.. there is no need any rulez.
monk vs. monk.
I think no tr rulez could be good and make this game more fun :) that's all about.
thx and sorry for my miss spelling.
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Barb vs wiz
From a barb point of view, wotb without insanity is just a 2 minutes cooldown cc breaker, I'm not even sure if I would use it. It would be rather a defensive skill to use when you are low and get stunned, getting 15 seconds to heal, but I'm not sure I would prefer it to threatening shout.
Especially because threatening is a constant source of fury and provides ms advantage aswell.
I don't think wotb is needed in this matchup.
Barb vs monk
I had a lot of nice, strategic, balanced games vs non-tr monks, they have more spirit and can do longer combos, it feels much riskier yet faster and more fun playing vs them. The normal bells plus sss style that monks like tomas have.
I came to a point where I don't even bother playing much vs tr, yeah I run 10 minutes to see how it goes but after that I move to other things... And I'm pretty sure I will never join again a tournament where tempest rush is allowed :)
@ Forti, yeah you did up your dps, still you can improve a lot, I played many games vs 200k+ dps plus soj monks with even lower aps than u have, and a lot more ehp.
Your ehp is so low, at least what I see in your dprogress, not only that any crit rend kills you, that's normal, but even non crit rends I bet hurt you a lot... Good monks are only damaged by crit rends and they have serenity to deny those.
I don't think it's a problem of low skill, but you can still improve your gear a lot.
Look for example at Mafia from us, he currently has 215k dps with 1.05 aps ( roughly 35-40% more damage per hit ) while having double your ehp; you are a very long way from that.
Barb vs wd
A lot of talk has been about insane and how he 5-0ed everybody in D3cl without having gear as good as euro or blud had.
Vimer was the only one to win vs him, 5-4 although vimer is better geared as barb than insane was as wd. However, I heard some rumours, dunno if they are entirely true.
It seems it was 4-1 for insane playing standard, after that vimer used the 200k+ dps and ~0.1ehp cheese - barb basically has one big wotb phase where he tries to 1 shot the wd, if he fails he is dead.
It may have worked because he caught the wd by surprise and maybe insane didn't have the knowledge and/or gear to counter that, but I'm pretty sure that if they met another time, after that, the score would have been much different.
I stick to my previous proposition
- The Witch Doctor can choose between the skills Fire Bats or Hex, he can use one bot not both at the same time
- The Witch Doctor can choose between the skills Spirit Walk and Spirit Vessel, he can use one bot not both at the same time ( as vimer suggested )
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Here i would recomend a overview of the rules for "Non BT Tank DH´s", because they aren´t ok in my eyes right now:
- DH vs Monk
I met a few very strong Monk´s the last weeks, even with "Chemical Burn" i had very hard times.
The thing is, that i got to play vs ">>>Good Monks<<<" 99% out of sight and snipe all over the map with HA and Impales, and hope that i hit. If i let them enter my screen, i die, or got very good luck and can escape.
The big dodge potential of Monks makes "Grievous wounds" just useless..
Don´t come up with Rapid fire now :) Everything that lets you stand on a place even for 2 seconds can kill you vs a good Monk. My suppose = Allow "Chemical Burn" again.
- DH vs Wizzard
Mokkal and Ximae can for sure say here that i am not the worst DH vs Wizzard player.
My setup vs Wizzard is "800" Lightn. Resis, 110 k HP, 25 k Globeheal.
I played yesterday vs Vegeta, and was very surprised how dangerous a good wizzard can be.
Even with the crazy defensive statts that i listened below, i was a "One shot" in let´s say 90% of all SA, Teleport hits.
After i was "Totaly" destroyed few times in a row, i took "Battle Scars" and the "Boar", and even with those, the matchup was slightly more balanced for me. Because in the most times like i mentioned before i even couldn´t use it, 1 SA, Teleport hit and im dead. <---Here is Brooding and the Turrets also useless :)
If there is a DH that says "It´s ok, i can bang all wizzards even with curent rules", i invite you to the game, play vs Vegeta.
My suppose = Allow Boar and Battle Scars again...
- DH vs Barb
Look on the statistics in the league right now, good Barbs are still beating up good DH´s.
Vimer = 100%
Nofear = 100%
DarkRaven = 100%
I don´t see the big "Overpower" of "Rapid fire" right now that you guys talk about.
My suppose = Let it as it is right now
- DH vs WD
This is the biggest Problem since the start of this league because just nothing has changed and they are still facesitting on us with their big butts.
My suppose to even start balancing this is = They need to choose Gargantua or Dogs, and "Spirit Walk or Spirit Vessel". WD´s got a very high survive and tank potential, so 1 of those things needs to be banned vs DH for sure
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Do you know that vimer and nofear are overgeared than any dh in league? Also dh's in league are not so pro's. I lose with one old-nat (very good gear, legacy nat cost around 10b I think) 3-5. So in my opinion it is not about unbalanced dh vs. barb
about dh vs. monk. Yes, unbban chemical burn! let's have lose every single fight vs. dh again! yuupi yayaey : D
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Do you know that vimer and nofear are overgeared than any dh in league? Also dh's in league are not so pro's. I lose with one old-nat (very good gear, legacy nat cost around 10b I think) 3-5. So in my opinion it is not about unbalanced dh vs. barb
about dh vs. monk. Yes, unbban chemical burn! let's have lose every single fight vs. dh again! yuupi yayaey : D
Nofear ist overgeared? Don´t let him read this ;) He is a top player, thats the fact.
I spoke about good monks, can you consider yourself as top geared and skilled?
You call all DH´s in the curent league noobs? Bad? How should we take "Not so pro´s"?
You loose still every single fight vs DH, even without chemical burn. So whats your point?
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the main problem is that there aren't any top level non-legacy dhs in D3cl at this moment.
there are 4-5 barbs here closer to the max potential of their class more than any non-legacy dh.
predsr is a very good legacy but rapid fire doesn't advantage them.
I have played against venxosiz in D3cl and vz uzjel after a public. I don't want to offend them but it wasn't even close compared to dhs like error.
I played vs error in a public game, 115k hp in Bt set and still amazing damage with rf. I couldn't kill him/her? in wotb with spear, I got him maybe 1/3 times with skorn but I needed like 2 crits in those 15 sec because of prep and smoke screen, plus I couldn't just stand in rf 15 sec.
the dps potential of rf makes it so overpowered because it allows them to be A LOT more tanky while still being able to kill. Maybe dhs here gear wrongly towards more dps. vs Ven I killed him with spear and shield without wotb, vs error I couldn't kill with skorn in wotb, while he still had more than enough to kill me.
the same as wd bats, top wds can easily go with high ehp because they think they can still burst a barb down. which actually is stupid cause barbs will only engage in wotb with IP and wds can't ever kill a running barb without both haunt and SB.
I agree that error is probably better geared as dh than I am as barb and didn't test a lot of specs, I'm curious what vimers experience is vs top dhs.
As a sidenote, scorpion joined the public game where I was with error and he really messed up the dh with bats. A top wd with bats seemed to have more dps potential than a skorn wotb barb, and that is pretty funny :)
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@ KNHO
Im not topgeared or top skilled monk. That's a fact. Dont say anythink like "you loose most of you fights against dh so you noob".
Vimer and nofear are much better geared than any dh here (in my opinion). but it depends what you mean better geared as barb then you as dh. Also vimer and nofear are much more skilled than any dh's here - that's a next fact.
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Darky thats the reason why i wrote this:
"Here i would recomend a overview of the rules for "Non BT Tank DH´s", because they aren´t ok in my eyes right now".
@ Forti, as you can´t tell anything constructive in this topic, i would appreciate if you just keep outside of this. I didn´t notice anything usefull for the pvp community in your 365 comments. Thank you.
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I look now at Venxosiz gear in dprogress, 213k dps SoJ with 1mil ehp 89k hp.
I think error had 210k SoJ with 115k hp in full Bt set. He doesn't have that gear currently equipped but it felt harder to kill than many Barbs.
dunno if he had double the ehp Ven currently has but I bet it was pretty close. He didn't even run when I had wotb, if he ran it would have been less than 30% win for me.
@knho, I agree there should be different rules for dhs not using rapid fire, especially legacy dhs, as I wrote earlier
Barb vs Demon Hunter
- If the Demon Hunter is using the skill Rapid Fire, all other skills are allowed
- If the Demon Hunter is not using the skill Rapid Fire, Barbarian is allowed to use the skill WarCry only with "no rune" and the skill Relentless is banned
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Darky, i don´t understand you :)
You wrote "predsr is a very good legacy but rapid fire doesn't advantage them".
So why allow everything for Barb, when he uses it? It doesn´t advantage him..?
I would change it into anything like "If a DH uses the BT set in combination with Rapid fire, then there are no restrictions for Barbs" Because the DH is able to Tank like a Boss, and still has a shitload of DPS. But even here, you just can stalemate this match, BT Dh´s don´t have a mobility to set the final blow on you if you play passive after some hits.
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I didn't want the rules to be complicated.
I know that basically a legacy dh will have lower ehp and lower dps. their advantage is mobility given by disc.
I didn't test enough vs a legacy using rf, I presume that it should be a lot easier to rend them compared to impale only dhs.
its not about Bt set, a non legacy dh can reach similar ehp values even without Bt, just like barbs can. the difference is that Bt ehp is based more on mitigation ( rather than hp ) and they have a bit more life reg.
to still keep it simple, maybe impose restrictions vs legacy dhs and allow all skills vs non legacy ( if they use rf ) ?, but I can't really comment on that because I haven't played vs RF legacy DHs too much.
Personally I felt the matchup was pretty fun without rf, while nerfing slightly the ehp of barbs. I think dhs should be encouraged more to return to that style rather than staying still and shooting rf until somebody dies, that's why I wanted to nerf even more barbs ehp vs non rf dhs.
maybe, vs non rf, ban all runes on wc, relentless and nerves, forcing barbs to use unforgiving not a full tank spec and maybe tough as nails which is strictly worse than nerves.
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and don't forget that mystical " top skill " legacy dh considered the matchup was perfectly fine with no restrictions even before 1.08.
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[...]
@ Forti, as you can´t tell anything constructive in this topic, i would appreciate if you just keep outside of this. I didn´t notice anything usefull for the pvp community in your 365 comments. Thank you.
Im unskilled doesnt' mean u are. I can say the same as you. you see, u challenged me, you can talking here but you cant play. that's all about.
We were talk about gear barb - dh. I just said there are no good geared dh in this league compared to barbs.
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Darky, we can test it today if you like. I am online from 22:00 cet.
I´ll show you that rending me isn´t eazy, because the whole gameplay around RF in combination with Impale, depends on "Thrill of the hunt" for me. A "standing still" only can afford a BT DH while sitting in healing turrets with brooding up.
With this you can´t kill a "clever, good Barb" who doesn´t try to kill you like a brain afk freak.
You forget the big vs elite dmg reduction by BT DH´s. <-- Thats the diffrence to New Nats DH´s.
"To still keep it simple, maybe impose restrictions vs legacy dhs and allow all skills vs non legacy" <---- That sounds worth to think about for me.
Let´s test today, and make conclusions after this.
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and don't forget that mystical " top skill " legacy dh considered the matchup was perfectly fine with no restrictions even before 1.08.
This is just not true Darky, i played a lot of times with MysticaL, and we talked a lot of times about this.
He just was trolling...Ask him self if you meet him again. He was stalemating for hours not able to kill a good barb, and the barb wasn´t able to kill him. It was fine when a barb joined the battlefield in a offensive gear setup. The most Barb´s didn´t do that.
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mystical was banned for the duping gold bug. but yeah, I felt he said that because basically legacy dhs can stalemate forever vs barbs.
I know that almost all dhs use rf with thrill and maybe other stuns too. so if you consider that using rf doesn't have disadvantages for legacy why not allow all skills for barb :) ?
I may be online around that time but I can't promise anything :) it depends on when my daughter goes to sleep and also today is my ( and my wife :P ) marriage 4th year anniversary :)
I'm usually online a bit in the morning before I go to work and a bit in the evening around 21-23 CET, I'll contact u when I see u online.
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Yes "Wifes" and "D3" are mortal enemys ;D ;D ;D
"so if you consider that using rf doesn't have disadvantages for legacy why not allow all skills for barb"
Because legacy Dh´s got dmg disatvantages, and we would give "Stalemating" a "go and have fun" signal.
Thats the only reason for me.
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- DH vs Wizzard
Mokkal and Ximae can for sure say here that i am not the worst DH vs Wizzard player.
My setup vs Wizzard is "800" Lightn. Resis, 110 k HP, 25 k Globeheal.
I played yesterday vs Vegeta, and was very surprised how dangerous a good wizzard can be.
Even with the crazy defensive statts that i listened below, i was a "One shot" in let´s say 90% of all SA, Teleport hits
knho, thunderstorm is 130% dmg while having high dps it might be hard to tank a crit its doable for a nats dh as u know, now calamity is 260% damage (double) and its physical damage btw, so u would need to have double the ehp to be able to take a crit hit, i dont know if its even possible for a nats set dh to do it, so u can just count on dodge for that. Thing is that calamity is a 16s cd spell that actually needs some skill to use, not a big range auto aim auto fire spell like storm armour and if u dodge the attack u have the wiz at ur mercy at pointblanc range. thats why i personally prefer to use explosive blast, even though its lower damage 225% if i fail i can still teleport out of danger, more skill involved too.
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Announcing I leaving the league. Blizzard won't be releasing arena mode for a while, and duels will not be balanced. That will not be their goal. I might return with the expansion. I got a few active challanges I will finish becasue they are players I not meet before. But I won't duel new challanges after that, since I will leave the league tomorrow.
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Blizzard won't be releasing arena mode for a while, and duels will not be balanced. That will not be their goal.
just guessing or ... ?
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That is the fact.
By tapatalk 4
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We dont know what will Blizzard do. They dont know themselvs. 3rd game director for 1 year. ???
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You know... travis wasbt game director. He was and he is senior dev.
By tapatalk 4
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Barb vs Monk fight:
I faced some problem against TR monks. 1st to say, barb already have banned wotb, but monks nothing. But here is the problem :
Monk can run how much time he wants with TR. Or you have be god of the random to take 3-4 charge that stun. Monk comes, flash, 2 hits with explosive light that deal ton of dmg, then run run run. If gets crit hit rend - serenity, then run run run run, flash, 2 hits, if again the barb is alive, run run run run run run. Serenity with cd passive has 12 CD. If barb goes heavy tanky, wont be able to kill Monk, cuz simply barb need like 3 crit rends in a row ( with lower dps). With more dps, barb get risky to be 1-2 shooted if ignor pain is not up. And ignor pain has 30 sec cd. That fight could long for hour if barb gets tank and monk cant 2 shoot him out of ignor pain. But obviosly i wont fight 1 hour, so i go more dps and result is less ehp, monk RUN RUN RUN RUN ( i dont speak personally to some1, this is not problem with just 1 monk), flash then run run run. Tempest Rush with 25 % bonus MS allows monk to move much faster than Barb with Sprint.
I dont know what would be best here, but barbs in that case ( FORTI, dont say nothing, pls) are a litle be ...
Proposal :
- Allowing wotb. Not big deal against TR monk, but still barb can use his full potential.
- Ban bonus 25 % MS tempest rush rune. That way monk would still run, but barb has more chance to chase. Still - barb have WotB banned, Monk just 1 rune.
- Ban both TR and Sprint - im not for this, i need decent monk to test that.
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Lol? Hehe. Ao let's ban shield for monk. This will be balanced. Lol. Barb is much cheaper to get high ehp. It is very hard to kill high ehp barb... Who killd u? How many monks?
I am for ban tempest abd sprint. But allowing wotb without tempest is ridiculs (?).
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I didnt saw allow WotB and banning TR. And what you say about cheap barb is not true. See russs, his build is very very good and i doubt cost ton of bilions. Just the correct items for the proper build. And pls, Forti, you are so undergeared that you dont understand the power of the monk.
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heheh Baned Tempest Rush lool barb is very hard opponent vs Monk, but you want to weaken him else.
Dont compare me and russs to another players, we have other game styles
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Dude... Im not undergeared as much ad u think.
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Russ has the gear of mnich currently.
I told you Forti that mnich would probably defeat nofear too with the current rules.
Dunno about the cost of that gear but I think it is pretty rare and expensive. The damage per hit of 166k plus 38vs elites with 0.9 aps is similar, roughly, to about 300k dps with 1.17 aps.
I want to see the results of russ vs vimer to have a clearer idea about the matchup.
I still think it's pretty balanced damage wise, but monks have a too big ms advantage and range advantage. Also barbs stuns are dodgeable, very hard to get consistent stuns.
If a monk plays safe waiting for serenity to deny crit rends it is close to impossible to be killed.
There may be other builds, like going for non crit damage so that even normal rends start hurting them, but I haven't tested yet.
I think the no tr no sprint rule could be better because barbs will have a chance to catch monks, however the overall damage of monks is much higher because of more spirit and longer combos.
Personally I prefer dieing faster than chasing a monk for hours around the map knowing I could never catch them if they play safe.
I don't really know if Russ(mnich) has top gear in eu, or how close they are to top gear, but the damage per hit potential is pretty impressive.
I haven't tested wotb, I think it's pretty useless vs so high ms.
I tested wotb vs barbs and I couldn't get any rends if they just ran 15 sec, it would be impossible to rend a tr monk with wotb.
Vs non tr it would probably be imba but vs tr is pretty much unusable. Plus to use it you have to get rid of threatening shout or charge...
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What about sin? I think no tr no sprint will be godd. But rember there are monks like sin who dont even use tr.
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I didn't play vs sin but I played vs Tomas who doesn't use tr either. I had pretty balanced games vs him, I think overall he killed me more but at least the games were faster and certainly more fun than vs tr.
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We can ban tr and sprint. This will be fun.
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Another one. Ban tempest and sprint if monk using 2h. Is 2x 1h then no need for both skills.
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no coment xd
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Y no connent. Because i wont agree with ban tempest without ban sprint. And ban spribt will be huge nerf for barb. Tested with paincreator - pretty well geared barb. Try it.
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Whats exacly happen with russ? He even loose with me 2-5 and now 5-0 with sin?
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Magic xd
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Rmah or what? He didnt looks like really high skilled... Chrck his previoud score.
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He plays on my items and everything in this theme.
Buying of items for real money or usage Bot it funny and crap, nooob style of game.
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So i have to play with him to see
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Base it good teacher,and it is possible to win something ;D ;D
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forti, I already told you Russ is using Mnich gear. You can see in diabloprogress.
this game is 80% gear, 20% skill maybe, you would probably have same score if you had that level of gear.
I will try to do some games with no tr no sprint rule vs some good monks. Maybe others can test too.
Personally I think that even just banning tr would make it more fun and fast without favoring barbs, monks have too lots of ways to close distance, like teleport hits, blind etc.
But I presume no monk will agree to this because most d3cl monks are tr monks, maybe they don't know how to play any other way.
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I love to play with 2x 1h vs. Barbs but i dont got any high dps fury plus rare spear. Mass cast wol lol
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did anyone notice that 28 out of 60 players in the league already quit the league for various reasons? rule discussion is nice but season 3 may never happen.
even with perfectly balanced rules, rules to separate players in echelons in the beginning and rewards it will still be very hard to get new players or to regain the ones lost.
in the end it will all come to blizzard to try and balance it for future "real" PvP if that would ever happen. although things have gone from bad to worse with last patch.
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my veto for banning legacy! in d2 no leage banned "antique" cats eye or whatsoever. why should they? with legacy you get smth like a 30% dps and 30% ehp malus compared to top mempo etc.. thats a 60% malus you sacrifice for more disciplin.
without legacy you can vault as hell as well (if you dont use any other discipl skil). that doesnt solve the issue some barbs have. and 60% sacrifice for some smoke screen is a lot, but makes dh fun...........
if you need to ban smth ban vault or smoke screen or ban that only for legacy users or give legacy users a 30 discipl cap or smth in special matchups but dont ban legacy set... dh without it is no fun!
banning wf in in d2 was great because it was truly overpowered, but legacy set has like zero stats compared to mempo and new set. if you really think its too good in a special matchup (and a 400dps 100klife not legacy user would not make the same "problem") then chance smth else for that matchup! (discipl cap, ban vault, ban smoke screen, ban manticore). it cannot be needed to ban legacy it in EVERY situation and every matchup with that giant loss of dps and vita! (e.g. a good mempo has already around 400 more stats than a 6 bil super awesome gaze)!
(btw, hi, im not yet playin in leagues, but its my only motivation for future d3...)
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@ darkraven. There are no 60 players. A few of them are doubled. I joined two times. Someone has 3. :) all we need is wait. People dont want pvp. All @ forums are whinning about itemisation. Only a few ppl (we can easy aay less than 5%) are really care about pvp. Sad but true.
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If all players that bought the game ot lets say at least 80 % returns to play, much more players will do PvP. If PvP is rewarding, that will bring even more players. I returned to D3 cuz PvP, not cuz failed PvE. So lets say if game is played by 5 mil players. 80 % is 4 mil. 5 % from 4 mil = 200k players. And that is fine.
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Regarding Monk vs Barb:
Monks usually use stun Wave of LIght and stun SSS ( if no explosive light). That 2 stuns + flash and barb cant reach monk without sprint. But anyway, that should be tested.
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U know u can block and dodge sss? With shield is not that pro. Sss + 2x wol stun + blind + serenity = no spirit. You know t high block dodge and ehp barb will probably still be near you after this combo? I hope u know. And now monk need run around for spirint - mpre than 30 sec ip cd.
But yes, i think monk is able to kill barb so easy. And vice versa.
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Block does almost nothing vs monk, barbs use shields vs monk because of the defensive stats, namely the elite reduce, resis and defense. If u get hit by an 1 mio crit SSS the 4700 dmg reduce from block doesnt realy help. If anything u want dodge against monk.
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Try fight vs. Monk without shield. I did some test with paincreator. Sss was overpowered. Sometimes he die with 1-2 from seven shoots. Dont talk if you didnt test it.
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as baharoth said, when you get hit by 80k per shot, for example, blocking 4k only reduces that damage by 5%. dodge is A LOT better than block, anytime, vs anyone.
A storm shield has ~1000-1200 arm, 70-80ar, 7% vs elites, 6% vs melee which works vs sss and normal bells, maybe 150-200 vit or 16% life
so unless you find a 2 handed weapon with 1000-1200 vit , a 2 handed weapon setup will never be able to have the ehp of spear and shield, but definitely not because of block.
block is best vs fast small hits, vs big slow hits its effect is quite small.
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Bullshit. Did you test it? I dont think so. Try it, try to take sss without shield :)
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@Forti
Could you read about block before you write another post? You are turning this topic into a spam fest.
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Lol. Just lol. Please. First go test. Then come back and talk.
And why u think i dont know how block is working?
So much useless rules (fake w/o) and talking here. Im out. Wasting of time i see.
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lol, If u see a big difference from sss vs shield and sss vs skorn, only a small part is because of block, the rest is from the defensive stats of the shield, as I mentioned above.
shield only blocks the amount written on it, like 3700-4700, if a hit does 40k and u block 4k u will take 36k, so 10% reduction, if the hit is 80k than 4k reduced is 5%, if the hit is 8k than u block 50% etc. the smaller the hit, the better block becomes
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Forti there is no point in testing without shield. Ofc the barb dies a hell lot faster without a shield, but thats not because of block, its because of stormshields def stats. A good stormschield alone should give like 1 mio ehp without block incorporated maybe even more against SSS THAT is the reason why shields are usefull. If u wanna test how usefull block is, get urself a shield with very low block % and test again. Or just do some maths... 100k hit after mitigation - 4700 ist still 60-70% of a barbs maximum life. The effect of block is close to nothing here if u dont know that then its obvious that u dont know how block works.
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Ok, a was wrong. But still i think sss do much less dmg thaj wol. Thats all about
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Forti,pls stop talking about Barbs, when you reach higher pvp gear lvl, everything will change. Now its just absurd for you to discuss this part of the PvP.
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Nofear dont troll :[
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Now the monks are wallhugging and play with crazy dot´s too.
Running around with a fucking aly, hugging walls all day long, waiting everytime for cd´s up, to set 1 fucking BIG DMG dot over some seconds, and then go on hiding again. Why am i supposed to hit with physical, very dodgable/avoidable attacks, without dots, while a monk can dot me for some crazy dmg?
Wd´s are the same shit as season 1, still no restrictions. Never a good dh was able to beat a good wd.
Dh vs Wizzard is still way to overpowered, due rapidfire (rockets).
There are 2 ok setups right now. Dh vs barb, dh vs dh. The rest is just n/c.
And this 2...i can play with my friends outside the league.
Good luck with going on guys. I´ll quit too.
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Next winning. All players agree wds are op. But dont say monk have op dota... Lol. He have to get close to you abd exploding palm need crit for some dmg.
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DH should be able to use chemic burn against monks. True, monks have hard fight vs dh, but chemic burn is nesecary for DH to be able to kill Monk. If DH and Monk are high skill/gear lvl, all skills would be good to be used.
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You dont even play dh. Giv some constructive feedback. Chemical burn is op. Also.. They dont care.
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Forti facing dh that outgear him 3 times, but they are op... ? Cmn dude, upgr yourself, then give proposal. Thx.
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Facing what? I didnt say dh is op. I said chemical burn is op. It was said a months ago abd everybody agree with that.
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I know I quit D3CL but a friend asked me to post here on some of the current metagame on US server.
DH vs Barb, I now have builds that will defeat Barbs using any skill build or gear. I have tested this on some of the top Barbs (or at least who is left that didn't quit the game) on the US server for some crazy results. I let the Barbs use everything: full BT, War Cry with any rune, Threatening Shout, and 180k+ HP, nothing worked for them aside from occasionally me messing up Thrill of the Hunt spacing lol. I look forward to testing this with the top EU Barbs when PTR comes around (unless they drastically change other skills changing the metagame again). I won't go into the specific build I use but it relies on Rapid Fire, Thrill of the Hunt, and some very high damage (and Rapid Fire Critical Hit Rate +%). Impale is worthless in comparison; I never use it vs Barbs anymore.
DH vs Monk, I still beat the top US Monks overall but other DH can lose to them. Even I die to them about a third of the time, with me using Chemical Burn. I think Monks try some of the tactics from the US Monks: Miejueshite, Scrapz, and Mafia. DH still have a slight edge but it is only slight now, maybe just banning Sharpshooter is enough.
DH vs WD, I think the match in the US is somewhat even with Plague Bats banned (just that one rune). If allowed to use it, WD will go so tanky they can just rely on bats for damage. Also, with Plague Bats banned, top Monks have destroyed the top WD in US (Mafia/Miejueshite have beaten Dennis/Chucknorris/Asmodai). If the bats are allowed, I think WD have the edge but it is not guaranteed vs Monks. Bats just eat DH for breakfast if the WD goes tanky. Haunt and pets are not really an issue, just Plague Bats in US. Banning Plague Bats is my best recommendation, it works great for the tournaments run by ViciousCattle.
DH vs Wiz, still in favor of DH, but top Wizards can get me lowish and force me to use preparation occasionally. Perhaps just banning Battlescars and the Aid Station is enough, not 100% sure here. There are very few good Wizards left in US.
Currently, I participate in the ViciousCattle weekly tournaments (PVE and PVP). The only rule imposed is Plague Bats (rune) is banned, everything else is allowed for all classes. We have different classes win the tournament each week! Our winners (US server) included: Chucknorris (WD), Ender (WD), Mafia (Monk), Iria (me, DH). Barbs are probably near the bottom now but have possibilities to win vs most classes still. I think in the near future, DH might need something banned too if I show some consistent results. Wizard do need a buff of some kind but just removing all life regeneration tools from opponents makes the matches too short; we are considering other options here. If the WD complain too much that Monks are eating them, we might let them use Plague Bats just for Monks, but that remains to be seen.
Peace
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I tested vs error, a top dh in eu, it was pretty brutal. I think I killed him once in more than 10 games. Only way was to get lucky with skorn in wotb.
I could still stalemate with shield vs his build but no way to kill him. ( and that's probably how all barbs will play vs top dhs, full tank stalemate, if there aren't any stalemate rules )
He used stun traps very effectively, I think he placed them under me just when I got stunned, dunno how but he chained 2-3 stuns pretty easily, without ignore pain it was gg. I haven't seen any other dh being able to stun me that much.
He still had enough ehp to survive a crit with skorn in wotb, with prep. And ofc he could have just run easily.
I'm really curious if other top barbs can defeat top dhs like error. My personal feeling is that not only all skills have to be allowed for barb but a slight dh nerf may be needed, rf is such a huge dps boost for dhs.
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Legacy nat as i think right?
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error had 100+k hp in Bt set, dunno how iria plays, I presume in a similar fashion.
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Dark Raven and Iria,
I have tested with error just as Dark Raven did. If dh goes full blacktorne with high ehp, this is kinda stalemate. I played with error and tried to find some counter build. The only good was WotB with skorn, but still in favor of DH. I need 2-3 crit rends in WotB to take him down, and this is pretty hard cuz ignor pain is 7 sec. No matter im on WotB and dh has less dmg, he just kill my hero for 1-2 sec after Ignor Pain.( error hits with rapid fire for 28 sec without stopping ) But here is the problem. DH CANT chase using that skills/gear build. I can run forever and waiting for next WotB with the hope to take 2 crits in a row, otherside i have to run again. If i go shield this round can be 5 hours, until some1 get sleepy. So, here, for avoiding the stalemate, my proposal is for dh to not use blackthorne set against barbs .
After this tryouts, i asked error to play normal style - he is legacy nata. Fights were very good, and maybe i had the lead with 60/40 %, but still pretty close fight - he survived few times on 1 k life, i survive the same situation.
Another match - before like 1 week ( or maybe a litle more) i have played vs Med - very good EU dh. He used New nata, i started with my normal build, build that i usually play vs DH. Med leaded 4-0 (yeah , that Rapid fire with the immobilize passive is great). Here in that situation i got confused, everything i know until now didnt work. I had to rebuild my skills, changed some pieces of gear and i had to improve myself during the fight. THe final result was 4-5 for me, yes, i killed him 5 times in a row, but every single round was hard, few times per round i survived with like 3 k life and in the end of the round i was always on 5 % life left. Maybe he got confused too and he didnt changed anything, maybe for that i have won that bo9, but if he change something too, fight would be even more closer.
So with this result, i can tell that barb vs dh is closed fight. But if DH goes blackthorne set, that means stalemate, or lucky kill for barb or dh while barb atacking with WotB.
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So, ban wotb abd bt for dh? Could be fair?
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My PVP set did not use Blackthornes versus Barb. Sure I can make a stalemate build with it, but I want to avoid that if possible.
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My PVP set did not use Blackthornes versus Barb. Sure I can make a stalemate build with it, but I want to avoid that if possible.
Every smart player in that game can do stalemate. Go kill barb with 240 k life, 1200 resist, dodge, relentless, nerves, shout and 25k dps. Unkillbe, but at same time no danger.
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My rule suggestion for Season 3! What i would like to see here now, is constructive critics from other active, experienced players. Nofear, Arcanis, Russs, Ximae, Mokkal, and maybe others...make a rule setup/suggestion like i do it here right now. If we get serious rules, by serious geared active players, i´m sure we can attract more ppl joining the league.
DH vs Wizzard
Generall: Forbid "Rapid fire", It´s just to sick vs wizzard and turns the match very into the favour of DH.
- For legacy users, the rules would be very ok like they are right now.
- New Nats users can´t play the ninja style around the map like Legacy´s do, they are limited in their disclipline usage, so i would allow them the boar.
- BT users can use brooding, because they are in a discipline disadvantage.
DH vs Barb
- If a DH uses Rapidfire, there should be no restrictions for Barbs.
- If a DH doesn´t use RF, Barb can´t use Relentless and the skill “War cry” is only allowed to use with “no rune”.
- BT Tank Dh´s can´t use "Healing Turret" if they use Rapidfire...this prevents stalemate situations.
DH vs WD
- In duels versus the “Demon Hunter” WD´s can´t use “Firebats”! The skill “Haunt” is only allowed with the 2 sec rune!
- In duels versus the "Demon Hunter" WD´s can´t use zombiedogs if they use a shield!
- In duels versus the "Demon Hunter" WD´s must choose between "Spirit Walk" and "Spirit Vessel".
DH vs Monk
Right now, it´s in favour of "Good" Monks.
The only rule i would set up here is:
- The passive skill "Sharpshooter" is not allowed if the DH uses "Impale" with the bleeding rune.
This matchup is very balanced if both players know what they do.
DH vs DH
- Rapidfire with the rune "Fire support" is not allowed.
- BT set DH´s can use only 1 of the skills "Brooding" or "Healing turret". Not both!
If 1 player stands with a full tank setup in his turrets with 4% life regen, pressing 1 button that can eazy 1 hit players, then it has nothing to do with skill, and should be prevented.
This are my ideas for balancing next season, i am every day online from 22:00 cet.
If you are on my gearlevel and want to test this stuff out, whisper me ingame.
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I fully agree with KNHO. Well thought rule.
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Barb vs Barb - no restrictions
Barb vs DH - knho´s suggestions
Barb vs Monk - no WOTB
Barb vs Sorc - no WOTB
Barb vs WD - no spirit vessel passive + (maybe ban plaque bats rune)
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my ideas for blizzard developers:
WD - delete spirit vessel passive, spirit walk doesnt dispell aoe-effects and dots
DH - rapid fire back to what it was but lowered recources costs, give dh a 10% buff to impale
Sorc - strongly reduce the cd of teleport - maybe 2 sec?
Barb - give Ignore Pain a 2 sec cc immunity and overpower crushing advanced rune 1 single cc break instead of 35% absorbshield, change wotb 100% more dps rune to 33%
- wd back in line
- dh can use skill needed builds again
- sorc gains some mobility .. dps and survivability is okie atm
- barb needs hardly anti cc
... monk is difficult its in line somehow but only usable with great gear and glasscanon build
if all that would change i think rules would be not longer needed
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Say that rulz to blizz dev team!
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we have no dev team atm so nobody can test your proposals :( probably we'll start next season with no pvp rule changes
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Mr Mag, i can take part of rul dev team. I am already in charge for EU PvP zone from 1 very good PvP site( well not only PvP). There we worked a lot for some skill balance. 17 1v1 PvP and 1 2v2 PvP tournaments were played in past few months along with "PvP" night event. We tried a lot variants and i can share what is really best so far. I know all the top players and also we play like everyday. We finnally made something works both for 2 sides. If you leave the rulz from 2nd season, well, that wont be the best you can do. Game changed, pvp players reached another lvls. You can contact me ingame : N0F3aR#2714. Also you can see my work about PvP here : http://www.viciouscattle.com/forum/forum-57-1.html . Rulz are something complicated and they change in time
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the problem with a ruleset is if we have 10 players, 10 rulesets will be created ;) i'll check that forum later and compare what have you created.
of course if you want to be in dev team, no problem, but we'll need some more people. Mnich said your rules are not perfect, as well as ours so maybe it's meaningless which one we're going to use?
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When excatly Mnich said my rulz ? Is Mnich active player? Cuz i am. And there is no "my rulz" but something that is tested with players and the best ot them. We have very good WDs in the face of Lusitano and Arcanis - they reach the lvl of Euro and Blud as gear and experience. As Monk i could recommend Lelik or/and Tomas if he is still playing. Barb in the face of Vimer, Executioner if he still playing too. Wizards - Mokkal, but he gonna be offline for few weeks.
The site where you can see is about gold prize every weeks, so there we work for the best we can get it. I can talk with all players ( really, they are in top ) and give feedback for detail rulz. So far as barb i can tell :
Barb vs WD - all allowed. Well at least in the top fights. For the rest may be - WD can choose btw hex or firebats.
Barb vs Monk - all allowed.
Barb vs Wizard - WotB banned. Or at least rune "Insanity"
Barb vs DH - All allowed if DH uses Rapid fire. If DH uses impale without Rapid fire, Barb can use his skill War cry with no rune.
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If there wan´t be some good DH vs WD changes, i don´t see a reason to take part in the next season, and i also think that no good DH will do. Because it´s just frustrating right now. Here is once again...my proposal.
DH vs Wizzard
- DH can´t use "Rapid fire"
- DH can´t use "Healing turret" and "Brooding".
- Legacy DH´s are not allowed to use "Battle scars".
DH vs Barb
- If a DH uses Rapidfire, there should be no restrictions for Barbs.
- If a DH doesn´t use RF, Barb can´t use Relentless and the skill “War cry” is only allowed to use with “no rune”.
Impale play makes only sense for Legacy DH´s. A non legacy DH´s just can´t kill a barb with Impale, because a barb can run and hide for years, waiting for his cooldowns, and because DH gets out of discipline after a very short time chasing the chickening Barb. <-----Stupid for DH´s, but very true.
- BT Tank Dh´s can´t use "Healing Turret" if they use Rapidfire...this prevents stalemate situations.
DH vs WD
- In duels versus the “Demon Hunter” WD´s can´t use “Firebats”! The skill “Haunt” is only allowed with the 2 sec rune!
- In duels versus the "Demon Hunter" WD´s can´t use "Blood ritual"
- In duels versus the "Demon Hunter" WD´s must choose between "Zombiedogs" or "Gargantua".
- If the WD uses a shield, he can´t use "Jungle fortitude".
DH vs Monk
This matchup is very balanced if both players know what they do.
- No rules needed here....
DH vs DH
- Rapidfire with the rune "Fire support" is not allowed.
- BT set DH´s can use only 1 of the skills "Brooding" or "Healing turret". Not both!
If 1 player stands with a full tank setup in his turrets with 4% life regen, pressing 1 button that can eazy 1 hit players, then it has nothing to do with skill, and should be prevented.
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N0F3aR "your" i mean vc
give me some time to consult. we still have the whole week to take a decision.
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At creating principles keep an eye on players which don't have a lot of gold to clothes for the char.The 90% of persons is doing principles up to its form.
If you are supposed to do such changes let us play in the coming season on such principles how were.
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i think a change in counting frags will have a great impact in scores.it can change everything.
KNHO i'm likely to use your suggestion:
In duels versus the "Demon Hunter" WD´s can´t use "Blood ritual"
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vouch
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KNHO i'm likely to use your suggestion:
In duels versus the "Demon Hunter" WD´s can´t use "Blood ritual"
I think you should use all i wrote, with banning "Blood ritual" only, you just make 1 little step in to the right direction, in fact with this, the WD "Overpower" against DH´s will still remain.
The Proposals i wrote, base on duels vs the best EU players of each class.
If there is someone who thinks that i am not right with the stuff i wrote, write some facts down here.
If not, take the rules for DH´s as i mentioned, else no good DH will join the league, that i guarantee you.
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Rule proposal, not as many as you did above
'Summon Zombie Dogs' are forbidden in duel vs DH and Monk
'Wrath of the Berserker' is banned in duel vs WD
something else have to be done with wiz rules. KNHO your rule proposal for wiz only refer to WD
+ Round(s) resulting in a draw (both players kill each other) counts as +1 round for player, who killed his opponent first.
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yeah these principles will level chances of other players in the ranking
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I think a hex ban is necessary if wotb is banned for b v wd, CC effects such as echoing fury, hex, mass confusion, horrify, wall of zombies/gargantuan will be too much for a barb to overcome. Not to mention the wd has good life regen, spirit walk and spirit vessel.
For WD v DH, the ban on zombie dogs alone should be sufficient to balance the matchup between WD and DH. No reason to ban blood ritual when zombie dogs are banned, and WD's have to choose between haunt or firebats. DH's have a clean shot with impale and rf now.
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Blood ritual wont be banned. This was previous version of changes.
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wotb banned against wd? Why dont u just give them an automatic walkover? Spares time and winning against them is impossible anyway.
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Two seasons backwards besker was forbidden vs wd still should be and now.
Wd baned firebats and barb baned berserker is good.
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And last season Vimer barely managed to beat insane who isnt even close in terms of Gear even with berserker.
I kinda agree with KNHO here, with the current ruleset the upcoming season will barely get 20 players probably even less.
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IIRC hex was banned alongside wotb two seasons ago. It's almost impossible for barb to win wd if wotb is banned and hex is allowed. It's fine if u wanna ban wotb to remove 15s duels but u gotta balance it better.
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hmmm okey it is possible this way to try in this season.
we will see how it will work ;)
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what s about bats ban against dh?
i think is the only op skill to kill dhs and need be banned
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ok, i read all the post now
i agree with iria rulez recomendations, on US i know only 2 dh can beat the top monks, iria and angel3, but both dont play the ligue. SS pasive is enought here.
I really test the rf build on dh mirror match, and i see impale>>>rf here
dh vs wd, plague bats bann is the only ban need, the others is a good recomendation, but i dont think obligatory
dh vs barb, rf+TotH pasive is op but no unbeateable, if they use charge and leap, they can scape from the thrill and hace a ofensive skill to close combat yet
dh vs wiz, the high damage wiz can one shoot you, or 2 shoots. battle scar and no breeding sentry. and no rf+boar.
is hard make a balance rulez from 2 servers because are very diferents severs, here i know only 2 barb can beat all clases, juice and skyislimit, but both cant win mafia(monk), mafia won 3 times vc tourney, and mirai(azmodai, WD) won like 4-5 times. i dont see nothing similar there, vimir won a lot there.
i think the current rulez need changes, try to make rulez to balance similar gear clases, the op gears always have advances with and w/o rulez.
Sato
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dh vs wd, plague bats bann is the only ban need, the others is a good recomendation, but i dont think obligatory
Realy Sato, wtf? Why i everytime got the feeling, when i read posts from US Players, that the EU players are noobs?
MysticaL also said that DH vs WD is ok, till he came here to EU and was banged like 0:500 by Blud and Euronymous.
Bats isn´t the real problem....it´s avoidable. The big problem is Haunt and the sick survivabilty of a WD.
With only bats banned, NO i say it once again "NO" Dh will be able to beat a good WD, and even the most stupid of WD´s, don´t loos if they go max tanky. This is one of the reasons why the good DH´s don´t play tourneys and league, coz it´s just frustrating to loos to WD´s because of no rules and the stupid overpower of WD. Same goes for Iria and the best EU Dh´s.
Once again, maybe you guys try to listen..
WD vs DH
- Bats are not allowed
- Haunt is only allowed with the 2 sec rune
- If the WD uses a shield, he can´t use "Jungle fortitude".
With this a good DH was able to win the last VC Eu tournament, and it was very close.
Good luck guys.
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we have to delay the league start and think about it once again.
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we have to delay the league start and think about it once again.
Listen to what Nofear says, he is the most active pvp player EU.
He manages good tournaments and pvp events.
He will help you with rules a lot, this is the best thing you can do right now.
The sooner you contact him, so faster your league will start.
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are those vc rules ready enough to implement and start 2 months season? i got the feeling you change them every tournament and everytime barb wins ;)
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WD
• Witch Doctors are only allowed to use either Plague Bats Rune or Hex against Monks
• In duels versus “Barbarian” is not allowed to use the skill “Firebats” and “Hex”.
• Witch Doctor are not allowed to use Plague Bats against Wizards
• Witch Doctor are not allowed to use Plague Bats against Demon Hunters
Barbarian
• In duels versus the “Monk”,”Wizard and “Witch Doctor” is not allowed to use the skill “Wrath of the Berserker”.
• In duels versus the “Demon Hunter” the skill “War cry” is only allowed to use with “no rune”.
Monk
• In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill “Cyclone Strike” is not allowed.
• In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill “Fists of Thunder" with rune “Thunderclap” is not allowed.
DH
• The Demon Hunter is not allowed to play the “bunker – style”. This style is defined by laying “Turrets” and/or “Spike Traps” and not coming out from the range of these traps.
• Demon Hunters are not allowed to use Rapid Fire against Wizards
• Demon Hunters are not allowed to use Aid Station against Wizards and Barbarians
• In duels versus the “Monk” the skill “Impale” with rune “Chemical Burn” is not allowed.
• In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill “Companion” is not allowed
is it ok for you nofear and knho? it's a mix of d3cl and vc rules. hope you'll like it :)
of course, change in couting frags is still valid
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It is possible to play these principles coming season. :)
It isn't possible to pull principles to the form which is being played. ;)
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Hello Mag,
you forgot some "Very" important points of the whole Balancing discussion here.
1. WD
• Witch Doctor are not allowed to use Plague Bats against Demon Hunters
Not enough, in last VC tournaments: All DH´s were eliminated by a WD with relative ease.
I would do it like that:
• Witch Doctor are not allowed to use Plague Bats against Demon Hunters
• Haunt is only allowed to use with the 2 sec rune against Demon Hunters
2. DH
• In duels versus the “Monk” the skill “Impale” with rune “Chemical Burn” is not allowed.
There is no need for this rule, good Monks will tear the most DH´s in peaces.
This matchup is very balanced with "No Rules". If you wan´t to weak a DH in this matchup no matter what, then take away sharpshooter. Against Monks like "Lelik" or "Sin", i was beaten up hard even without rules. If they enter your screen..you´re dead. Chemical burn wan´t help here.
3. Barb
• In duels versus the “Demon Hunter” the skill “War cry” is only allowed to use with “no rune”.
This rule was ok before the Rapid fire buff. Right now good Dh´s will rape barbs in peaces with this.
Change it to:
• In duels versus the “Demon Hunter” the skill “War cry” is only allowed to use with “no rune”.
• In duels versus "Rapid Fire" - “Demon Hunters” all skills are allowed.
If this goes live, i go and buy DH gear again to play active in this league.
Now let´s wait what Nofear says, if he agrees an all >>>> Great >>>> Start
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In my opinion you exaggerated in the duel dh vs wd.
firebats ok baned but haunt also forbidden it is an exaggeration.
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In my opinion you exaggerated in the duel dh vs wd.
firebats ok baned but haunt also forbidden it is an exaggeration.
In my opinion you didn´t realy read what i wrote Mnich.
Haunt is not baned, it´s restricted from 5 seconds to 2 seconds.
Once again for you, maybe now you get it :D
1. WD
• Witch Doctor are not allowed to use Plague Bats against Demon Hunters
Not enough, in last VC tournaments: All DH´s were eliminated by a WD with relative ease.
With the DH vs WD rules i wrote, it´s very even. The last VC Tournament show´s this! A DH won very close....
It´s better to favour a dh a little bit, then overpower a WD very much. Check out the statistics of WD vs DH from last seasons, and check the VC Tour results. DH´s have been raped!
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and what about this: barbarian vs demon-hunter, Total duels: 8, wins: 100%?
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the decision depends on MrMag I think that it isn't worthwhile facilitating the games for itself very much.
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and what about this: barbarian vs demon-hunter, Total duels: 8, wins: 100%?
Are this statts collected after the Rapid fire buff?
This win-ratio could have Vimer or Nofear, because both are very strong overall, and there are no more good active DH´s remained in the league. With your proposal i think, most Barbs will be totaly dominated by experienced DH´s.
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ok, we'll see. a decision about the rules will be taken today
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Guys, there is a difference in the skill balance - depends on the players's pvp level. When best players are fighting - well i can say that skill balance is almost not nesecary - perhaps really litle changes. When there is difference btw the PvP level of the players - well then skill balance is nesecary. I can say that i've played agianst best EU players and the skill balance that is needed is really really small. Like 1 rune or skill are ok.
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Not if we talk about WD. Realy, i get very angry when someone tells me again that DH vs WD is very ok with only Bats banned. I don´t know how much good DH´s must say this, till Barbs and Monks get it too.
Maybe you should just make a DH, and get pwned everyday by a tanky noob wd.
Then you guys smash your keyboard with your wiener and start play your old class again.
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Valentine, you had to watch GTXi vs Raisling on the final.
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ok, i'll get your rules. we're going to start next season tomorrow (at evening i guess)
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Ok, about
2. DH
• In duels versus the “Monk” the skill “Impale” with rune “Chemical Burn” is not allowed.
There is no need for this rule, good Monks will tear the most DH´s in peaces.
This matchup is very balanced with "No Rules". If you wan´t to weak a DH in this matchup no matter what, then take away sharpshooter. Against Monks like "Lelik" or "Sin", i was beaten up hard even without rules. If they enter your screen..you´re dead. Chemical burn wan´t help here.
i ll add, on US with mafia, miejie or scrapz is the same, the last ligue mafia won all, and miejie lost with him only. Lucianisimo, the best dh on that ligue loose with miejie and mafia 0-5 because with wounds u can cut his life enough (and the super potions of boths) and they can one shoot you with all his critics.
The diference is betwen low gear/experience players, there a "weak" monk ll loose with less chances against "weak" dh, because is more easy get dps over ehp, but nothing to do there.
Abaout the haunt with 2 secs and the tanky style of wds, i think the pets bann is need it, dogs or zombie. both is a lot of tanky capacity. if he is too tanky u cant go with impale/fan spec, u need rf and they 2 kind of pets are very hard to kill before the wd kill u.
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KNHO, about the only bat bann is really nedd it, i saw because is the most important think to bann, i loose with mirai (asmodai) 0-3 the last vc tourney, and i can say, i cant win him. He won me using skorn and 2 sec haunt only on practices games like 50-2, and i can agree with the wd>dh with only bat banns. But i saw that because i want to see that bann on rules only, the rest is fine, more balance c:
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Sato, the choice between dogs and gargantua will still remain. Both at once is way to tanky.
Thank you for agreeing my thoughts! ;)
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Everything for good fights ;)
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i still have no time to gather those rules together. could anyone do it? :D plz ;]
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Wich rules, Mr Mag?
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the one that Mnich wrote and then KNHO changed
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the one that Mnich wrote and then KNHO changed
WD
• Witch Doctors are only allowed to use either Plague Bats Rune or Hex against Monks
• In duels versus “Barbarian” is not allowed to use the skill “Firebats” and “Hex”.
• Witch Doctor are not allowed to use Plague Bats against Wizards
• Witch Doctor are not allowed to use Plague Bats against Demon Hunters
• Haunt is only allowed to use with the "Resentful spirit" rune against Demon Hunters
• Witch Doctor must choose between "Zombie dogs" and "Gargantuan" against Demon Hunters!
• Witch Doctor can´t use "Blood ritual" against Demon Hunters.
Barbarian
• In duels versus the “Monk”,”Wizard and “Witch Doctor” is not allowed to use the skill “Wrath of the Berserker”.
• In duels versus the “Demon Hunter” the skill “War cry” is only allowed to use with “no rune”.
• In duels versus "Rapid Fire" - “Demon Hunters” all skills are allowed.
Monk
• In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill “Cyclone Strike” is not allowed.
• In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill “Fists of Thunder" with rune “Thunderclap” is not allowed.
DH
• The Demon Hunter is not allowed to play the “bunker – style”.
This style is defined by laying “Turrets” and/or “Spike Traps” and not coming out from the range of these traps.
• Demon Hunters are not allowed to use Rapid Fire against Wizards
• Demon Hunters are not allowed to use Aid Station against Wizards and Barbarians
If something is wrong here, and you think some class is hard underpowered now with this rules, give it a try.
Maybe Mag likes to wait 1 day more and listens what you have to say.
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thx. the problem is that we have no players to discuss here. it means when the league will start, and someone will lose a couple of duels, he will unsubscribe and tell us to fu ;]
remember, pvp rules shouldn't be only for the best/richest players but for everyone. i'm not sure if i'd like to manage a top 10 players league than 100 average ones. i'm afraid even if blizz give us arenas, the whole class unballance will cause that noting will change.
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My apologize, but as organizator of many tournaments and top PvP player i can say the rules so far are not accetable. I can say you something that should be like 100 % on, especially regarding WD:
WD vs Monk - all allowed - ive tested variants here and only 1 works properly : NO RULES btw WD and Monk !!! I've tested that with the best players and i can asure you the best mode here is : ALL ALLOWED !
WD vs DH - dh really can play vs WD i can asure you that since i saw how dh beat top wd. IM under discussion that rules since i saw what DH can do against WD without firebats ( check previous VC tournament - the final btw GTXi and Raisling). Perhaps passive Blood ritual wont be allowed.
WD vs Wizard - I say that - No Firebats, No Blood ritual, No Haunt. Now wizard can engage WD and the same time WD still has skills to defeat Wizard.
WD vs Barb - Variant 1 - All allowed. Here a litle advantage of WD. Variant 2 - hex or firebats - well here depends on the player's skill lvl. Variant 3 under discussion : No Hex, No skill fear, no WotB, sprint can be used without rune Marathon cuz other way barb runs as much as he wants.
Barb vs Wizard - no WotB
Barb vs Monk - here fight may go 5 hours if Monk uses TR + healt potion globe bonus + spirit generation build. Really we have to pay attention here cuz if barb goes more offensive he may be 2 shooted by bell and no clever barb will risk that. Same time barb goes a bit tanky to survive the gc but has no enough dps to take down monk fast. Problem here is that TR gives better MS even if barb uses Marathon + 24 % MS. + skills like charge and leap are really not very effective ( dodge, walls, trees, not enough range. I can give 1 proposal here : No TR and the same time No Wotb. Now dont say "MONKS cant chase now" - they can with their blink ability that gives them even 1 sec root to the enemy. Still this has to be tested.
And guys, make promotion of the league - tell the players about the new season and the prize pool system.
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And guys, make promotion of the league - tell the players about the new season and the prize pool system.
just after the rules will be ready. its pointless to do it now. i think ;)
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thx. the problem is that we have no players to discuss here. it means when the league will start, and someone will lose a couple of duels, he will unsubscribe and tell us to fu ;]
You had 2 seasons to wake up Mag. After the first allready "A ton" of ppl told "Fu" to this league.
In second season NOTHING neccesary changed, after it then the last soldiers of d3cl pvp told "Fu".
It can´t be more worse then it is right now bro.
Sorry Nofear, but when i read what you write about DH - WD, i start to smile.
2 Seasons, and 18 weeks of tournaments DH´s had been asswiped by WD´s.
Nobody said something, nobody changed rules to make it fair for DH´s!
After reading your post, it seems for me like this:
DH pwned 1000000000000 times by WD? Ok DH <<<<<---Noob, L2p!
WD pwned 1 time by DH? OH WTF <<<<< ---- We need to set the rules back! Poor WD, DH op!
What about Iria, FoxOnfire, Lornazondiac and more good Dh´s? All say the same thing as i do, all of them lost 99% of their vs WD fights in tournaments!
Thats a fact! <---- Nooobs???
Maybe GTXi is the "Vimer" of the DH population? 560 k Dps, 25 Billion gear. What now? Lets make rules depending on Vimers gear, and Vimers skill!?
Do a separate devision for pro´s who doesn´t need rules Mag!
1. Pro League ( No rules ) Only for kickass players with godly skill and gear. Gods don´t need restrictions!
( Here will compete Barbs, WD´s, Monks and 1 DH called GTXi! )
2. Noob + Average Player league ( With rules, that keeps some balance and fun for the most players )
( Here will play me, and the rest of the idiots that don´t use their class right )
Im out now :) I take a look what happens to the rules, and then i decide if i play or not!
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You had 2 seasons to wake up Mag. After the first allready "A ton" of ppl told "Fu" to this league.
In second season NOTHING neccesary changed, after it then the last soldiers of d3cl pvp told "Fu".
It can´t be more worse then it is right now bro.
it was not about the rules, it was about the diablo3 pvp at all. in the first season all players wanted to try pvp. we all know how it looks. it's difficult to balance the rules for rich and poor player. i guess it's not even possible. that's why we have very small number of players. look at vc. different rules (in the past) but is the number of player greater than in d3cl? no. as i said, it's not about the rules.
Do a separate devision for pro´s who doesn´t need rules Mag!
1. Pro League ( No rules ) Only for kickass players with godly skill and gear. Gods don´t need restrictions!
2. Noob + Average Player league ( With rules, that keeps some balance and fun for the most players )
it seems reasonable in current situation but we have too small number of players to do it. but we'll see :)
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You had 2 seasons to wake up Mag. After the first allready "A ton" of ppl told "Fu" to this league.
In second season NOTHING neccesary changed, after it then the last soldiers of d3cl pvp told "Fu".
It can´t be more worse then it is right now bro.
it was not about the rules, it was about the diablo3 pvp at all. in the first season all players wanted to try pvp. we all know how it looks. it's difficult to balance the rules for rich and poor player. i guess it's not even possible. that's why we have very small number of players. look at vc. different rules (in the past) but is the number of player greater than in d3cl? no. as i said, it's not about the rules.
You are right, but rules are also a part of the problem why much people left.
I personally know much ppl, much dh´s that don´t play because of the rules. They don´t wan´t to smash they keyboards after loosing to some players that are not better, but just are to much favoured by the rules or by no rules.
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yeah, so dont play with the new ones ;) to not scary them :D
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I proposes garden hoes all fights on principles "freee duel" xddd
0 rules 0 problems xd
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i want a ligue with more people only, rules of knho are fine. on eu are always 3 times more people than us u.u
i would like that to change on future
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i guess it's because we have no d3cl crew members from US so no contact in that community. wittster was on the beginning but he's gone now :(
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Sorry I missed contributing to this thread. I am a PvP Wiz from US. I host the VC tournies and am in regular contact with the top players from US. In the next rule thread I will make suggestions for balancing Wizard, notably vs WD. Spells such as Spirit Barrage are very strong and hard to play against if the WD is geared towards that spell. Monk is a tough one to balance but as crazy as this sounds I would prefer some kind of Serenity ban or Blinding Flash. With Serenity a Monk can negate Unstable Anomoly's knockback and instant kill me. This will need further testing.
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i think this topic should be closed :) i'll make a new one