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1

Rules & development / Re: Rules proposal for the 3rd season - open discussion

« on: June 02, 2013, 20:22:51 pm  »

Are you seriously telling me that 300str, 300vit and tons of crit/dps can't make any difference? What's going on here? This game is almost purely based on gear if players of similar experience meet. How can this not be the difference between winning and losing?!

Your numbers are made up. A 40m EHP Barb (really, that much is possible?) will not die faster than a 140k life 2-3m EHP WD in a realistic setting (permasheep vs. DH isn't realistic).
A 500%+ or 900%+ weapon damage skill deals more damage than a 230%+3*65%. Ever died vs. WD in 1 or 2 shots like vs. some Monks or in a few seconds like in DH rapid fire meltdowns?

I always like discussion about rules, but it's getting silly. No point in discussing with you guys anymore. This is one of the more balanced match-ups in the game with WotB and you apparently just can't accept it if 2 or 3 WDs on the server are able to beat you.
Cheers, see you around in some future patch.

2

Rules & development / Re: Rules proposal for the 3rd season - open discussion

« on: June 02, 2013, 13:15:12 pm  »

Is 1 problem euro, this items dont exist what you have described 

Yes, but they can exist.
"So now it's a question of where to set the bar for "highest gear level". Is it the maximum possible rolls? The best items that exist? The best or most expensive char of a class? The best items a certain amount of gold can buy?
In my opinion it should be maximum possible rolls. This is the only thing you can count on, best existing items and chars will always change."

@DarkRaven
Blud and me used legendaries on all but one slot (gloves). There are some slots where rares can be an alternative, but that's similar to rare belt/pants/gloves being an alternative to what Barbs usually use. I don't know if there are WDs right now that are closer to perfection than Vimer, Scorpion is playing for pvp-dummy and at least half of his items on his profile are not best in slot and shouldn't be used vs. Barbs.
You have to look at the char as a whole and can't just do slot by slot comparisons. If you lose hundreds of stats on your weapon, amulet and shoulders (possibly bracers too if not lacunis) it has the same effect as using average legendaries instead of best-in-slot legendaries in multiple slots. What good is it if you gain 40 stats with the best on server 90/90 BT boots compared to common 70/70 BT boots if you lose out on 200 stats on one or more of your rares?
Rares make or break Barbs. Crafts have nothing to do with budget, but without crafts it would be even harder for Barbs to reach their max potential.

@IMP
You are just making up numbers in your first post.
WDs best skill has 230%+3*65%, how much do rapid fire and wave of light deal again?
How does a 140k life WD have the same survivability as a 16m ehp tank barb? WDs usually don't have more than 1.5m EHP vs. Barbs or 3m vs. other chars if they use tank gear.

If you use Vile Ward as a Barb you give up your advantage of 100 (130) stats compared to dex/int classes. Therefore Vile Ward can never be best in slot for Barbs. It is basically impossible to make up for that loss on other slots because like I said, at the top level you can only get 20 stats here and 20 stats there on legendaries.

"and the items u need for that are mostly rares that u can only craft and that are difficult to maximise" Crafts only have +30 stats on perfect rolls compared to rares. Without crafts it would be even harder than it is now to get good rares.
But this is exactly my point, Barbs are more difficult to maximize. I gave you guys an example of Vimers items, 4 changes for +30% DPS without an EHP loss if you get stats on the level of good legendaries (~85% rolls).

Most Barbs could gain 25%+ DPS from their spear alone if they would switch to one that is on the level of perfection of EFs and Manticores. That alone shows which class has the highest upside right now...

3

Rules & development / Re: Rules proposal for the 3rd season - open discussion

« on: June 02, 2013, 00:09:37 am  »

Do you know how affixes work? Your shoulders are 111 str out of 300, bracers 0 str out of 200, weapon 47 crit out of 100, amulet 65 crit out of 100 and so on. You don't have to lose any stats for it (except for the useless arcane, psn and low dex rolls).
Usually for best in slot you would expect at least 85%+ perfect rolls (like your BT set, that I consider best in slot). If you had 85%+ rolls on the 4 stats I mentioned you would gain 30% pure damage (and more EHP because of armor).
Look at the top WDs and DHs (if they still have gear), you will not find many slots that can get huge upgrades like that.

I don't think you understood my post. It was a response to DarkRaven saying that budget barbs are better than other budget classes because they use non-pve items that are on low demand. And I agree with this, but it's the opposite if you look at maxed out chars. It's much easier to build a near perfect WD/DH. Barbs rely on rares and crafts, much harder to get best-in-slot on these.

4

Rules & development / Re: Rules proposal for the 3rd season - open discussion

« on: June 01, 2013, 00:12:50 am  »

Like I said, if you want to get the WD regen back to the 1.07 Level, ban the healing rune on Spirit walk. It's 14% over 2s every 13s, so ~1% on average.

5

Rules & development / Re: Rules proposal for the 3rd season - open discussion

« on: May 31, 2013, 11:21:02 am  »

No I don't have any gear left. Let me get this out about "best in slot". How does one define that?

Vimer defeated insane in a very close game (I think insane told me it was 4-1 for him) because vimer just outgeared him, he is much closer to top barb gear than insane is to top wd gear.
the main "problem" of barb gear, and why so many complain about barbs, is that getting 80-90% of the stats of vimer for example is not prohibitively expensive, but getting 80-90% of the stats of a top player in other classes is very expensive, because high dps gear is still more expensive than high ehp gear (not absolute top, but pretty close).

In my opinion top Barb gear is the hardest to get since you rely a lot more on rares and crafts. Top WDs are a lot closer to their gear ceiling than a Barb like Vimer. Vimer could gain +300 stats on his shoulders alone, 200str on his bracers, hundreds of stats and lots of crit on his amulet and weapon. If you look at top WDs and other classes: 50 stats on vile ward (little benefit even from perfect crafts), 50 stats on lacunis (can't use crafts because of movement speed), 50 stats on tal rashas amulet (little benefit even from perfect crafts), 50-100 dps on EF/Manticore (rares can't beat the CC/DPS). On budget WDs and other classes it will be 50-100 stats and 100-150 dps which is still pretty high compared to the potential of barbs.
So now it's a question of where to set the bar for "highest gear level". Is it the maximum possible rolls? The best items that exist? The best or most expensive char of a class? The best items a certain amount of gold can buy?

In my opinion it should be maximum possible rolls. This is the only thing you can count on, best existing items and chars will always change.
Like you said about the budget barbs, it's how the market is now. If it takes more effort to get best in slot Barb gear, why should that be accounted for in rules?

The real problem of the match-up still is WD CC and lack of CC breakers on Barbs. This probably can not be solved until Blizzard makes some changes to WotB. Til then: Get better gear and stop complaining 

6

Rules & development / Re: Rules proposal for the 3rd season - open discussion

« on: May 31, 2013, 10:28:41 am  »

@ euro

you really  need a bit more objective view of the situation... i think u lack on that because maybe u dont play enough this days.

it is really not all bad this days! but especially for barb the season 2 rules are worse and the season 3 prediction is just a joke. If you want nice hints how to make rules just ask the active top players.

Maybe these active top players should form a team and come up with some rules then? As you can see there are no rule devs left at d3cl. So if you guys consider yourself active top players, contact Mag. I'm sure he would be happy to have some new rule devs.

Yes vimer is #1 but only because the lack of good players playing d3cl and usind open brawl instead because of the rules.
Barb vs wd:
always talk to vimer and why he can beat scorpion and blud and euro not for example, what mistakes some wd do in wotb phase and so on. we can kill 97% of all d3cl appearing wds but still get raped in public games vs skilled wd players.
I agree on vimers spirit walk + vessels theory

Okay so you want to tell me that top WDs only play in public games (=no rules) because of current rules? What makes you think they have any interest in joining here if you make rules worse for them?

@Dark
I'm saying budget because a lot of you barbs use that argument in your favor. So if insane gets close to beating vimer with a gear disadvantage it is not allowed to happen and you want more rules so that Vimer always wins 5-0 unless a 50b+ WD with hundreds of hours of pvp experience arises? And it goes without saying, if he loses against a WD like this, clearly more rules are needed. If the WD loses, he needs more practice.
But if you guys win vs better geared players like you do all the time, gear suddenly doesn't matter? It's skill and experience, but certainly not class imbalances?

7

Rules & development / Re: Rules proposal for the 3rd season - open discussion

« on: May 30, 2013, 21:25:36 pm  »

@Vimer
#1 EU pvp-dummy WD is in this league, he bought my old gloves for 200eu and I assume that his other gear parts have a similar price tag on them. So maybe try him.

@Nofear
If a wizard or wd with similar gear and skill like Vimer joins you should lose 0-5 and Vimer should go 50/50. But why make rules on "what if"?
Btw. if you want to even out the blood ritual 1% -> 2% buff the most logical thing would be to ban the healing rune on spirit walk (14% every 13s, ~1% on average).

@forti
no rules = no fun
rules = no fun
gear differences = no fun
playing noobs = no fun

Solve it please

8

Rules & development / Re: Rules proposal for the 3rd season - open discussion

« on: May 30, 2013, 17:00:20 pm  »

i really want to be constructive but all i have to say is:

season 1 : 300 players
season 2 : 50 players
season 3 : 10 players

not at least because of rules politics .. even no rules were better than all this

Don't blame d3cl and its rules for that, blame Blizzard for not putting out a proper pvp system.

Look anywhere and you will find a similar drop in players. The mainstream along with all streamers quit after a few days of PTR 1.07. Most competitive players quit a few weeks into 1.07 because they realized that D3 isn't rewarding skill. The majority of players I played on PTR 1.07 didn't even log onto PTR 1.08. I haven't been on live 1.08 yet, but who is still playing now that they made an imbalanced game even worse with recent class changes? Can't be many.

Witch Doctor vs Barbarian:

The Witch Doctor can use either “Spirit Walk” or “Spirit Vessel” but not both.


this is my proposal in duels barb vs wd. All other allowed

18-0 with 0 competitors in this league and still demands huge nerfs to other classes, that's just embarassing 
Nofear is #2 in the league with a budget barb and he too complains about other classes every day. Who do you guys want to play against? Do you think WDs and others classes are just waiting for more nerfs and that's why they haven't joined the league yet?

9

News / Re: Awards and cooperation with loothunter

« on: May 27, 2013, 16:55:19 pm  »

Exactly, that's why there is a place for a "pvpprogress" that offers more than just the obviously flawed pvp-dummy score which isn't even telling me if the player is into pvp or not.
If the means to calculate a better pvp-dummy exist, then we should go for it and take the least flawed score to evaluate gear.

It's not there to replace the league system, it's there to give players a platform to meet, duel and compare each others pvp progress. D3cl leagues and tournaments are part of that pvp progress and can be displayed with your current rank and your titles, trophies and such. Mag is already pulling lots of data that could be used for many different scores, ladders and personal stats.
 
At least that's my idea of it, lets see what Mag comes up with

10

News / Re: Awards and cooperation with loothunter

« on: May 27, 2013, 13:57:51 pm  »

i thought about it a couple of month ago but i wasn't sure if it it's necessary. you can always post a pm on forum, create a topic and if anyone would be interested - he will simply answer. of course we could try to create a paralel messaging system and signups for just traing duels.

Of course you can post on here, but few people will read it or respond to it. I think the success of sites like diabloprogress shows that such dbs are very appealing to players.
A lot of duelers use diabloprogress to find opponents or to check what other people use. It is far from optimal though since you can only check for pvp-dummy score which doesn't tell you if these players are even dueling. It is completely useless to find opponents that don't have high-end gear because players below top-20 dummy are most likely pve players.
Diabloprogress is mainstream and for a lot of players it's the endgame of D3. I think we all agree that pvp should be recognized as the endgame of D3 and a "pvpprogress" version of diabloprogress would certainly help to get there.
 
Right now, you won't be recognized as a pvp player unless you sign up for a league. I'm sure that a lot more than the current ~50 players actively playing in d3cl leagues still actively play d3. 50 players, that is like 10% or less of the players registered on here. And then there is a large number of pvp players that didn't even register because they didn't like the rules, the league system or whatever.
That is just the "inner circle" of players that are already into dueling. There are thousands of players that would certainly love to duel if there was some kind of match-making or more incentives.

I think it's pointless and a waste of time to create some match-making/hidden mechanics for the current league system due to the lack of a players.
This site needs a solid foundation first which would be the suggested database. I don't know how much work it would be for you guys to build something like that, but seeing that you already thought about it, it looks like it's not impossible to do
Once you have that it's a lot easier to set up leagues and tournaments of different tiers and rules.

Incentives like gold per win sounds more like farming than pvp to me, I don't think that's how you want to attract players. Where would that constant stream of gold come from anyway?
I think just the database alone would give many incentives. PvP-Dummy score is already an incentive for some players, you could easily add scores to that (d3cl score, mirror duel score, vs class score). The players with the highest score in a category could receive a title (e.g. barb slayer for the highest vs. barb score). Trophies for league and tournament wins could be shown.
The database could improve match-making a lot too. A "find opponent" button that shows you opponents that are likely to be a good match could be done. It could be based on pvp-dummy within a certain range and/or some of the other scores (like the score vs. your class).
Of course there a plenty of options to offer gold and items as incentives then. League and tournament prices, raffles, wager matches and so on.

11

News / Re: Awards and cooperation with loothunter

« on: May 26, 2013, 20:32:41 pm  »

Isn't that pretty much how it works now? The 180-point difference already separates players. Tier-1 are active players with 80%+ winning ratio, tier-2 are active players with winning ratios or new players with very good winning ratios, tier-3 are new players or ~50% w/l ratios and tier-4 are players with losing ratios. As a tier-4 player you have to beat some other tier-4 players until you get the chance to further improve by dueling tier-3 players and so forth.

The community is just too small now for it to work itself out properly, if you look at the table of the first season you can clearly see how different tiers emerged.
http://www.d3cl.com/en/league/view/3/pvp-d3cl-1v1-league-eu.htm

That being said, I think the whole idea of a league isn't working for D3. It's too much of a drag and too little incentive to play in it.
In my opinion d3cl should provide a database to find other players that signed up for d3cl. Wouldn't it be nice to have a search engine for duelers, e.g search for "legacy nats DH" and sort after pvp-dummy score? The current challenging and messaging system could be used to have friendlies with the players you found in the db.
For competitive pvp regular tournaments should take place. Tournament score should also be in the db and could be used to create a ladder.

12

Community information and announcements / Re: US & EU D3CL Season #2

« on: May 20, 2013, 19:29:35 pm  »

I don't think you need charge if he isn't using walls. It's a mistake in my opinion to not use walls. If you think chasing a WD around corners is tough, wait til you face the wall

If you really need the stun, ground stomp should be easier and safer to apply. Overall I think threatening shout is best to survive the 1m45s. It's range is higher than the WDs CC skills, low risk of getting caught. And unless the WD wastes his spirit walk to break it he won't be able to get many hits. He also should not be able to kite you during WotB with shout up.

Also Rend is worth a try. Zombie dogs die easily to it. It's range is also higher than the WDs CC so it's rather save to get in a rend here and there. If your crit hotas hit for so much your non-wotb crit rends should bother him quite a bit. 100k HP with no regen on gear is not enough to just eat rends.

WotB might not be necessary if he isn't using EF. Barbs did pretty good in "no hex, no wotb" vs. non EF WDs. Hota+Rend or two instead of one of the fury generating CC skills has worked if you know how to avoid hex.

Lastly, I don't think you are outgeared by that much. Compared to Vimer you have like ~10% less EHP and ~20% less DPS? A significant amount of it due to lower crit chance. Since that's just average DPS your Barb should perform similar in at least some occasions. I wouldn't expect that to be the difference between 5-4 and getting roflstomped 0-10.
Balanced or not at similar gearlevels, it obviously takes more skill and experience to kill a WD as a Barb (/any class) than vice versa.

13

Community information and announcements / Re: US & EU D3CL Season #2

« on: May 20, 2013, 15:27:40 pm  »

How many crit HotAs did you need to kill him?

14

Community information and announcements / Re: US & EU D3CL Season #2

« on: May 19, 2013, 14:08:43 pm  »

His gear is about 5-10b while Blud and me were in the 50-100b price range. Judging from the inspect in venxosiz twitch video I'd say he has about the same damage (~300k vs. elite +barrage bonus) but probably ~25% less EHP and less utility (no fear proc, no hp bonus on pots).

So, while the price difference is huge it's not necessarily a huge difference ingame. Like mokkal said, if you die in a few seconds, possibly in the duration of a spirit walk, it doesn't really matter how much EHP the WD has.
Same goes for DHs and Monks, in my opinion only Barb and Wiz heavily rely on gear since they don't have temporal invulnerability.

That being said, you really should be able to kill this WD (except for Wiz). I think right now a lot of you suffer from a lack of testing. One reason being that it's hard to test builds and tactics if there are almost no players to test with left. The other being that some of you make the rules your scapegoat for losing instead of trying to improve your game.

For Wiz instead of the 1 out of 4 rule, a 0 out of 3 (barrage, leaping spiders, firebats) would probably be better.

15

Community information and announcements / Re: US & EU D3CL Season #2

« on: May 18, 2013, 14:33:44 pm  »

@DHs
Checked the latest results and found these two quite interesting

predsr#2228 vs  brx#2821 2013-05-18  3:5 
brx#2821 vs  Emmett#2681 2013-05-16  1:5 

I obviously don't know what happened in these duels, but, assuming all players played at their normal level, it looks like a nice example of how different gear/build choices affect the outcome of a match.
DHs have so many options now that most WDs don't use Firebats, all these CC/stun melee builds become very effective. Tank builds with 4% regen could be effective. It's up to you to gear in a way that you don't get randomly 1-shot by Spirit Barrage.
It's far from proven that good new nats/bt DHs don't have a chance under current rules. I don't blame you if you are not willing to spend another 10B+ on a new nat set, but you can't really complain if you are using an outdated set from almost a year ago as a "one for all".
Unfortunately Emmett loses to a lot of non-WDs, so we might not see Insane vs. him anytime soon.