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61

Rules & development / Re: Ruleversion 1.2

« on: March 05, 2013, 17:46:02 pm  »

Legacy nats vs. Barb:
DH wins no matter what
- unless barbs find a completely different gearset for a couple of billions that is as effective as the inspiring presence build to stand a chance
- vast majority of previously new nats DH will buy a cheap legacy nats set to get easy wins vs. barb

I think these are both kinda false, cheap legacy nats wont win vs barbs, played lots of games yesterday, both of the top barbs won most of the games, the only barb i won (approx 10:6?) wasnt even his main, and i doubt his gear is even near the tier as the top barbs i faced

It's not about how YOU play against some barbs. No offense, but from my experience against DH it is probably the class that requires the highest skill to succeed (movement, aiming, resource management and so on).
How come that on the US server there are DH that can beat almost any barb without rules? With gear comparable or even lesser than yours. Now imagine them playing vs. those barbs not using inspiring presence. Also keep in mind that most barbs in Europe look up to the barbs from the US, so it's not like barbs on US are noobs. Some of the US DH already posted in this thread how easy it will be without inspiring presence.
That's what I often see in this thread and what the rules are mostly based on. You have to look at the bigger picture, not jump to conclusions as a result of your own limited testing.
European ladder: WD>Barb>Monk>DH>>>Wiz
Top players from US state: Barb>DH>Monk>WD>>>Wiz

Both 1.07 D3. Basically we all agree that Wiz needs to be buffed*. Barbs>DH on both realms, not by a huge margin if you look at the top players. All the other match-ups seem to fluctuate a lot. It's more of rock-paper-scissors there than true class imbalances. In my opinion it's absolutely stupid to balance these right now except for some really minor tweaks.

*but, if you read my previous posts, in a more balanced way. Taking away all the defensive abilities of a class just so Wiz can kill them easier doesn't make sense.
@Blud, do you really think that fighting Wiz without Spirit Walk, Pets and Hex/Horrify result in a fair and fun duel?

@error
Movement speed: If that would really benefit the duel and make it more balanced I don't think any Barb would have a problem with getting rare bracers instead of lacunis. It's just a single piece of item (that any decent barb should already have anyway) that doesn't make or break certain builds.
I disagree that the average of matches between all classes has to tend to a 50% ratio. In a small league like this it's highly possible that a class is underrepresented with a playerbase that's just not at the top-level with their gear and skill yet. Like I said above it's really misleading to base rules on the current standings of the european league or some hours of testing between the admins.

62

Rules & development / Re: Ruleversion 1.2

« on: March 05, 2013, 15:56:09 pm  »

We don't need a video, just understand those facts vs equaly skilled and geared opponents:

1- New Nats DH vs Barb:
   - Barb wins no matter what.
   - Vast majority of DH are New Nats.

2- Leg Nats DH vs Barb:
   - Stupidly long rounds, 15 minutes or more. (Where's the fun in this???)
   - Barb has advantage:
      - DH can't make any error.
      - Barb can reset the encounter via hide and regen.
      - DH is prone to make errors because of fatigue.
   - If the barb can't win switches to Cat vs Mouse stalemate.

I really wonder what makes you think otherwise. But something has to be done to balance Barb vs DH encounters, don't you think?

I know they said they don't want to ban gear, but one has to realize that banning certain skills has the same effect. You have to maximize the potential of your gear around skills.

If I translate your comparison from above to the new rules suggested I get

Legacy nats vs. Barb:
DH wins no matter what
- unless barbs find a completely different gearset for a couple of billions that is as effective as the inspiring presence build to stand a chance
- vast majority of previously new nats DH will buy a cheap legacy nats set to get easy wins vs. barb

New nats vs. Barb:
possibly balanced
- lots of barbs still have to re-gear because it doesn't make sense to have 200k HP if you have no %HP-based regen anymore

I believe it makes more sense to just ban legacy nats in that match-up. Few DH will have to change to new Nats (most probably have a set stashed) and Barbs will have a chance to win with some adjustments.
An alternative to banning the set would be "if DH uses legacy nats, barbs are allowed to use inspiring presence". I just don't see the point of banning skills that you build around or that make or break a class. Have you looked at changes like movement speed caps? If you think back to D2 rules, all match-ups had different movement speed caps. I'm no expert at legacy nat DH vs. Barb, but maybe it would be sufficient to slightly reduce the Barbs movement speed? They usually play with 24%+marathon? How about 12%+marathon for a test?

63

Rules & development / Re: Ruleversion 1.2

« on: March 05, 2013, 04:33:23 am  »

It would help others to evaluate your testing if you posted the chars involved and state the main class of the testers.
No offense, but I find it hard to believe that one can use multiple chars ("tested extensively wd vs. barb", "tested natalya's soul and wrath") to their fullest potential.

Also you are changing a lot more than just "no wotb, no hex" in that match-up. Most barbs as well as WDs agree that this will lead to more fun duels because playing with a 2min CD that gives you a 15s window to kill your opponent is stupid.
While testing this, it looks like you found out that it's too hard for WDs to take down a high HP barb with tons of regen and relentless. This is probably true, but I really don't get your solution for it:
No spirit vessel for WD means no second life and about 15% higher cooldowns on spirit walk and horrify. Also no shield, but you can't afford to use a shield anyway vs. barbs because you will lack dps.
Barbs will just say fuck regen (inspiring presence), stack enough dps to 1-2 shot and go for a quick kill with HotA. They don't even have to be careful about when to engage anymore because there is no Hex. All WD can do is spirit walk and fear once (maybe stun once with a 60s cooldown) and then pray that the barb won't come near them for the next 12s.
So if you felt that in "no hex, no wotb" barbs are a little superior, the additional rules certainly widen the gap. My suggestion would be that you test changes similar to "barb vs. wiz", i.e. reduce the mobility of barbs a bit. From a barbs point of view with sprint marathon and charge it almost looks like WDs are moving in slow motion.

64

Rules & development / Re: Ruleversion 1.2

« on: March 04, 2013, 22:46:35 pm  »

Sure, that's bound to happen if the rules stay this way. But since the rules are not in place yet, I might as well try to argue and prevent that from happening, right? Spirals specifically asked for feedback on WD because they are not sure yet. That's why I'm pointing out that they are going the wrong direction with Spirit Walk/Vessel bans. Other classes often whine about Haunt and banning Haunt in some cases will not break the WD class. That would be a much smarter restriction and WDs are actually able to work around that with other skills.

The wording of the rules vs. Wizard seems to be redundant or wrong btw.
-   The Witch Doctor can use either “Spirit Walk” or “Spirit Vessel” but not both.
-   In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill “Spirit Walk” is not allowed.
-   In duels versus the “Wizard” the Witch Doctor is not allowed to use “Spirit Walk”, “Summon Zombie Dogs” or “Gargantuan”.

While were at it. Have you faced a WD that could beat you without spirit walk, pets, shield and hex/horrify, kaio?

65

Rules & development / Re: Ruleversion 1.2

« on: March 04, 2013, 22:17:56 pm  »

@Green
I don't think you remotely understood or even read my post. You also seem to have a lack of knowledge about other classes as your posts are always dripping with misinformation (just from your last post: spirit walk cd is 15s, spirit vessel is 90s and reduces spirit walk and horrify cds by 2s). Therefore I don't think arguing with you will bring up anything useful.

@kaio
I gave feedback in the other thread and was one of the few posters pushing for their own class to get nerfed. You have to understand that spirit walk and spirit vessel are the core of a witch doctor and removing one or the other will break the class. It's like removing smokescreen from DHs and tell them to find alternatives and tell them to explore their char better. WD is useless without them and sadly there are no alternatives for these skills.
A lot of people seem to underestimate the fact that WD was more "out-of-the-box" ready for pvp than probably any other class due to the overwhelming arsenal of powerful skills and the fact that balanced WD pve gear is not that different from what they use in pvp. But now that other classes have geared up and figured out how WDs work that gap became a lot smaller.
Ask players with high-end gear and lots of experience in D3 pvp, and I think that's what you want to base your rules on, most of them will tell you that WD vs. DH/Monk/Barb are relatively in balance right now. Some will even claim Barb/DH/Monk > WD at a really high-end level. In my opinion, one or two limitations per match-up like banning Hex, limiting the amount of auto-aiming attacks will be more than enough to even it out.

I played countless hours of D3 pvp, especially vs. DH and Barbs and tested pretty much any skill in hundreds of different builds. Again, there are no alternatives to the spirit walk/spirit vessel combo and WD are bottom-feeders without it, especially when you ban most of the other defensive skills too. Can't state more than my opinion on it, I guess we will have to wait for the ladder next season.

66

Rules & development / Re: Ruleversion 1.2

« on: March 04, 2013, 20:53:41 pm  »

You know that I really appreciate the effort you guys are putting into making a good place for pvp in D3. But those rules are really disappointing.
I think you got the problem with WD totally wrong. WD is the new Wiz with these rules, better offensively but even worse defensively and in mobility. I'm not sure how much WDs had a saying in those rules (Keen was mentioned but looked suprised about some rules in his post too), but the restrictions are just too much.
WD is a very fragile class. It's just tough to realize it because right now you could combine all the few defensive/mobility skills a WD has in one build. Taking away spirit vessel or spirit walk in all fights alone will break the class, it just doesn't work without them. Taking away even more (hex/horrify, no shield, pets in some cases) will make them the laughing stock of d3cl.
It's not the defense that was the sole problem with WD - I'm pretty sure any class could easily take a WD out. It was the combination of a powerful offense with a wide variety of defensive and utility spells. Taking away only the latter will result in extremely dull and short fights.

Lets look at some match-ups:
vs. Monks
old rules: tough match-up because WD lacks the mobility to get away from monks and also the defense to not get 1-shot (2-shot with spirit vessel) by wave of light. It was a kill or get killed kind of duel.
new rules: no shield, no spirit walk or no spirit vessel. Monks stay the same. Duels were short and boring before, now they will last about 4s - the duration of serenity. 5-0 for monks.
Possible solution for the monk vs. wd match-up: ban wave of light and then balance the duel around a monk without wave of light. WDs will have to get some limits offensively too.

vs. DH
old rules: slightly in favor of WD or even match-up if the DH was playing with legacy nats and very good movement (check Mystical from the US). Why did the WD win? Mostly because of his dots (haunt and plague bats) while trying to stay alive with the combined use of spirit walk, vessel, horrify armor buff, pets and maybe even shield.
new rules: you take away more than 50% of the defensive skills and the possibility of a shield. DH stay the same. It will be ridiculously easy for a good DH to take down a WD with those changes.
possible solution: limit the WD to one dot (haunt or plague bats) and one of hex/horrify and one of pets/shield/jungle fortitude.

Okay I keep it at that for now. I don't see how those rules would be more fun or fair for most match-ups. Hopefully some experienced non-WD players can second how one-sided most fights vs. WD will be.
I think you have to make the restrictions to skills more balanced. Right now you take away mostly defensive skills. This will result in a lot of boring fights, worse than the early pvp days on PTR when everyone was dueling in pve gear, 1-shotting each other.

67

Rules & development / Re: D3CL PvP Rules - open discussion

« on: February 26, 2013, 00:47:12 am  »

Totally agree with mannercookie here. Limits like that will only make d3cl less popular. Who wants to spend weeks of searching and billions of gold for gear with which you get raped even in public games and which is only viable in the microcosm that is d3cl?

People want to register with their #1 PvP-Dummy, #1 whatever chars and be able to duel right away with only minor adjustments.
For me, like I already mentioned before, minor adjustments would mean banning certain skills in certain match-ups.
I consider banning certain overpowered items as minor adjustments too, though right now I don't see any overpowered items yet. Biggest differences probably come from the choice of weapons (1h+shield/offhand, dual wield, 2hander), but they all have their pros/cons.

Major changes like altering equipment or destroying gear/build synergies should be the last resort and not implemented until minor changes have been proven to be insufficient.

68

Rules & development / Re: D3CL PvP Rules - open discussion

« on: February 25, 2013, 12:56:13 pm  »

Well, we could always ban vanishing dye, but that doesnt solve jewelery swaping or swaping items with identical look.

How about something along the lines of
"Players are not allowed to carry any items in their inventory except for healing potions* (and xy if you decide to allow certain items). Once per duel, a player can request his opponent to record and upload a video of his inventory. A request is only allowed if both players are in the arena and the round hasn't started (e.g. instead of "go"-"go" the round would go "go"-"show inventory please"). Upon request, players are not allowed to leave the arena until the video was uploaded and reviewed."

This would require the possibility to upload short videos for your challenges on d3cl. All players would need a free recording tool like Bandicam or even just a mobile phone/camera. They wouldn't have to run it all the time, just for the short video upon request.
What do you think of this? It should be an effective way to prevent item-switching. I also believe that players wouldn't make use of this rule too often, so the time delay should be minimal.

*maybe the inventory should be filled with white/blue items to prevent players from dropping/hiding items for the video.

69

Rules & development / Re: D3CL PvP Rules - open discussion

« on: February 20, 2013, 17:29:40 pm  »

Error, I don't really see why banning a few skills depending on match-ups forces us to use "cookie-cutter" builds. If anything it breaks cookie-cutter builds, forcing you to get more creative and explore other ways to defeat your opponents.
The most obvious example right now is Hex vs. Barbs. You will not find a WD not using it in a league match. Ban it and you will find at least a few different skills replacing it. They are all not as good as Hex obviously, that's why everyone used Hex before, but they will all be viable in certain situations.
It's such an obvious and easy change and will greatly improve that match-up. It's easy to monitor too, if you're not seeing the doll your opponent isn't using Hex
How do you plan to balance classes without limitations anyway?

Another rule I'd like to see is:
No item-switching during a round. I've seen (not on d3cl yet, but on PTR and streams) people go from full DPS to full tank within a second or do all kinds of tricks. Swapping gear should result in a auto-loss (0-5) and a warning. Multiple warnings should result in a ban from the league.
Sometimes it might not be easy to see or prove it, but the rule alone should prevent most people from doing it.

70

Rules & development / Re: D3CL PvP Rules - open discussion

« on: February 20, 2013, 13:12:47 pm  »

Are stalemates really that big of a problem right now? Wouldn't it be sufficient to just draw with +-0 for the rare occasion and avoid those players in the future? There are more than enough duelers out there to gain points.

Error, the rules you suggested would make dueling less fun for me. I really think what we need most now are match-up rules to even out class imbalances.
I obviously agree with kaio here, wizards need a huge buff by league rules.

Every player must have a defined standard built to avoid forced stalemates. If classes don't have a predefined built/playstyle there are more chances of forced stalemate.

a. Same build to begin all duels. Takes away one of the most interesting features D3 has to offer. I never had a stalemate yet, thanks to the diversity of WDs. If I see a really tanky barb I just pack more offensive skills. A "one-for-all" build would have to be balanced and therefore lack the damage needed to take down some tanks. In this case the rule would force me to force a stalemate.

Set of rules:
1- Rounds that last more than 5 minutes are draw (like a double KO) +1/+1.
2- Encounters that end in 5/5 (draw encounters) make both opponents lose double quantity of points.
3- Subsequent draw encounters will double the last penalty applied to each opponent (exponential growth for everyone).

b. This will give "bad mannered" players another option. Once you are leading, avoid getting killed for 5 minutes and you will win the duel.

71

Rules & development / Re: D3CL PvP Rules - open discussion

« on: February 19, 2013, 23:14:28 pm  »

In my opinion rules should be made similar to what we had in most D2 leagues back in the day: Specific rules for all match-ups. I just don't think universal rules alone, e.g. "no life regen" or "ban skill xy", will be sufficient. They could do more harm than good. That's the kind of balancing we can expect from Blizzard (flat 30%/35% reduce *cough*), but we can certainly do better
I'm sure that many knowledgable players would volunteer to test all possible match-ups.

@error
Who would define the first build though? This could lead to players provoking a stalemate if they feel that they can't win in the current setup and that they could gain an advantage by forcing the opponent to use lesser skills. Tanky players could bluff and use weaker skills in the beginning to strip their opponents of their strong skills.

72

Community information and announcements / Re: Change in challenges

« on: February 19, 2013, 16:43:23 pm  »

I don't have any experience with creating ladder systems, so if you guys think 3 is good I will trust you in that decision
It's the first season anyway with obvious class imbalances so we might as well use the time to do some tweaking to have a really good system in the future.

@FeN
Unfortunately if have little knowledge about ladder systems, last time I played in one was about 10 years ago in D2 1.09 and I can't even remotely remember how it was back then. So if this kind of ranking has been found to be the best over the years, okay.
What can I do if no one wants to duel me anymore? Wait until the player with the most friends in top 10 surpasses me? My main point of criticism is that you can get into top5 so easily without even dueling any top20 players just by queueing challenges vs. low ranked players. Mr.Mag already said they/you are working on this which is good to hear.

73

Community information and announcements / Re: Change in challenges

« on: February 19, 2013, 15:31:55 pm  »

7 was already low in my opinion. 3 would mean that you can match up with the same players for over 10 times per season.
Why not make it one match plus one rematch (with at least 3 days delay) per opponent? The way it is now, the most active duelers are on top but not necessarily the best. I don't want to have 10+ duels per day for 6 weeks just to have a chance for a top spot.

I also think that you should not be able to queue 10 challenges at a time. I see a lot of people challenging 10 low ranked players all the time so they can still duel them when they are at the top of the ladder and the point deficit is much larger than 180.
My proposal would be to make queued challenges invalid if the point deficit becomes larger than 180.

Regards,
Euro