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106

Rules & development / Re: Ruleversion 1.2.6 [Open Discussion]

« on: April 24, 2013, 13:48:05 pm  »

I know shadow, I got a little butthurt that wizards are owning me now , I think I took it a little too personal
 
in the end skills used and style of play can make a matchup completely different.

I went from 9/10 vs u and mokkal to about 2/10 vs mokkal yesterday ( using same skills )... with hota was more balanced, but still that's with the current RoF.

I think that a lot has to do with players communicating new builds and provide feedback. A lot of skill bans where due to the fact that most players didn't use the best builds...  what seemed like class imbalance may have been just using wrong builds.


I remember a thread here where chucknorris said that wd vs monk ( I think ) is not imbalanced because X player found a way to kill him... but he didn't want to say what.

People developing new builds keep them to themselves and people being destroyed by new builds are afraid to explain what happened because others will do it to them

The same happened to me with some monks, like lusitano for ex, at first I had about 90% win rate, but after we talked about some gear and skill changes, he now kills me around 70% of time, and he still can do better I think.

Just using tr with blue bells and maybe also palm makes a huge difference from using normal bells, with no tr and no palm.

The advantages of barbs are ms - negated by tr, regen - negated by huge burst from blue bells and maybe palm... also I use superstition vs monks for more ehp and fury gain but against blue bells the fury gain is low and I can't spam sprint... if I use unforgiving I drop ehp and get killed a lot faster.

Many players don't yet understand how various skills can radically alter a matchup from one side to the other. PvP is still young and banning some skills before all players know all possible builds may be too early.

107

Rules & development / Re: Ruleversion 1.2.6 [Open Discussion]

« on: April 24, 2013, 12:25:51 pm  »

I agree that top players must test this on ptr, probably wotb allowed is too much.

 U don't need to fully reset the cd of mirror in one stun, u just need to deny crit rends, which are half the rends, at best

3 stuns in a row are doable and can kill a barb with good ehp, with the new RoF, especially with top dps,  ~300k with soj.

I tested with mokkal on live yesterday, with tankier setup I had 204k hp, 1000all res buffed, 12k armor buffed, 1000dex for 30% dodge, -9% vs cold from ic boots, 32 block, -14 to elites, -6 to ranged ... And relentless.

I only had about 50k dps but he only had 50k life...he had no problem to burst through this even with the current RoF.

I did a little better with 4 piece Bt and only 170k hp but it was still pretty one sided for him... until I went to skorn hota and manage to 2 shot him a couple of times.

It's just an example of how metagame evolves and banning skills without A LOT of testing is not right.

With Bt set, buffed, vs elites I have around 11mil ehp with dodge, more with block but it depends on the average value of RoF ticks, against higher atk speed wizzards block should be better, but those wiz also reset with CM faster.

Assuming 300k base dps plus 30%soj (kaio has 330), dps with cold blooded should be around 400-450k

2.8 RoF is base but u get 3.6 with snow blast so around 1.5m per sec sounds pretty good to me.

Ofc in real combat there are more variables and testing has to be done.

Allowing wotb seems too much but allowing only one stun from wiz, and from barb (like current rules) is worth testing.

108

Rules & development / Re: Ruleversion 1.2.6 [Open Discussion]

« on: April 24, 2013, 08:55:49 am  »

and we thought they don't care

now how about barb vs wiz with the new RoF ?

with CM and very long chain stuns wizzards will melt barbs in seconds... not only that no ehp nerf is needed but I think wotb should be allowed or allow only one stun for wiz.

already rend is almost useless as they get to reduce cd on mirror a lot and they negate all crit rends.

109

Rules & development / Re: Inspiring presence for 1.08

« on: April 24, 2013, 08:35:01 am  »

Tank wd are already impossible to kill by barbs they have so many stuns and heals, u can't keep the dps on them.

I tried vs one with 200k hp, even with 100k skorn and soj, hota and rend I barely scratched him, but it was with hex...

110

Rules & development / Re: Inspiring presence for 1.08

« on: April 23, 2013, 16:05:11 pm  »

I think that max damage, low-ish ehp and a lot of practice can do it.

u can always run and wait for preparation and / or pot if u get a crit rend but with enough practice the rends will be few and far between.

I actually played vs mystical right after he played devil, at first I underestimated him, I played with warcry but no threatening and he killed me eventually, with warcry it was stalemate but his dps is pretty bad on EU

111

Rules & development / Re: Inspiring presence for 1.08

« on: April 23, 2013, 15:13:43 pm  »

no offense knho, but I'm talking about unbuffed dps from diabloprogress.

I see u only have 165 there with soj, maybe it's with older gear but I don't think 410 unbuffed with legacy is possible.

in the vids mystical beat devil with d3cl rules he had about 180k unbuffed, with soj

I think error and predsr have around 240k with soj but I'm sure there are others with more in eu who could probably take vimer down.

I'll add u anyway to test 

P.S. we can test with the no relentless no nerves idea that I posted, no warcry is stupid vs good legacy dh

112

Rules & development / Re: Inspiring presence for 1.08

« on: April 23, 2013, 11:58:33 am  »

Also legacy nats dh is very skill intensive. I've seen mystical a lot of times saying that with close to optimal gear dh is favored. And if his average EU dh managed to kill top EU barbs I tend to believe him.

The problem is how do u make barb vs normal dh balanced without making top legacy nats players with good skills too imbalanced vs barbs?

Warcry ban was clearly a mistake which made barbs sitting fat ducks incapable of catching a good legacy dh... and actually encouraged stalemates as surviving for 30 minutes and waiting for the dh to fall asleep is the only chance.

113

Rules & development / Re: Inspiring presence for 1.08

« on: April 23, 2013, 11:22:15 am  »

Even if blizz goes on with the buff I'm pretty sure we can balance it, where it's needed, and that is mostly dh vs barb.

In wiz vs barb actually the Ray of Frost buff and teleport buff are pretty good.

If any wizz doesn't use Critical Mass in games vs barb, start doing it now, it is amazing. Reduced cd on mirror, frost nova and bump wave is so good. Also teleport wormhole catches any sprinting barb easy.

Shadow88 with 230k and soj already melts pretty good ehp barbs that use all defensive skills, I don't understand how a wiz like kaio, for example, with 330k dps and soj would ever have a problem with ehp barbs.

I would say that barb vs wiz in 1.08 is perfectly fine, the only think that needs to be banned is probably Wotb but that too can prove too much if wizards are getting very long chain stuns with CM. Even when barbs want to run to regen teleport wormhole with the new buff catches them so fast.

The only real problem is barb vs dh.
I would say ban nerves and relentless and if it's not enough only allow warcry with fury gain rune.

 Testing and fine tuning needs to be done at top level because the matchup can easily become one sided for DH if we nerf ehp too much.

@forti, good monks can 2 shot with 2 crit ( even 1 crit and 1 non crit) blue bells any barb if the barb doesn't dodge and he engages without IP. And also have the low aps and spirit regen to run faster than barbs with tempest rush...

Life reg buff only allows a quicker regen until next combo, but barbs are already waiting for IP 30 sec vs good monks...

114

Rules & development / Re: Inspiring presence for 1.08

« on: April 22, 2013, 07:05:47 am  »

Top WD and monks rely on burst vs b and they will still be able to kill barbs.

top WD like euronymous and blud destroy top barbs easily even with the no hex no wotb rule, 4% life reg will actually balance that a bit. Especially with the new bats which can kill in one stun sometimes.

Monk vs barb is a lot of times full burst then wait 30 for cd and try again, any barb already has 1200-1500 regen on gear plus 2% it means they are already at full in 30 sec. U can also check mafia vs manner on ptr, he still killed manner a lot. There may be builds that take advantage better of the life reg but top players have to test if an ehp skill ban is necessary. But overall it looks pretty balanced at the very top.

Barb vs barb will probably rely more on stun and burst hota rather than rend.

Wiz and dh lack the burst damage but banning some ehp skillz in d3cl should be enough. The problem with warcry ban is that it nerfs fury management too much and barbs have no chance to catch a legacy dh.

But banning all defensive passives and all runes on warcry except the fury gain may do the trick. I'm sure that with testing and tweaking a solution can be found.

In barb vs dh, a defensive legacy dh has a lot more stalemate potential, if they don't want to lose they will never lose, the movement speed advantage is pretty big.

Wizz still got the RoF buff which coupled with some ehp reductions to barbs can make that matchup pretty balanced

I know it's a dumb move from blizz but I think we all want top players to test builds and possible bans on ptr until saying that PvP is dead.

115

Rules & development / Re: Ruleversion 1.2.6 [Open Discussion]

« on: April 20, 2013, 13:33:44 pm  »

were they using war cry ? maybe banning relentless vs dh would balance it, nerves is a good alternative but the health drop is more linear and if u can slowly grind them down you will eventually kill them... or u make some mistakes and they kill u.

116

Rules & development / Re: Ruleversion 1.2.6 [Open Discussion]

« on: April 20, 2013, 12:40:31 pm  »

if mystical's average eu legacy dh defeated devil without warcry, with 180k dps, maybe predsr can do it too with 240k legacy, even with the life reg buff.

vimer or devil should try predsr on ptr and test various bans for ehp skills until it's balanced at that gear level.

117

Rules & development / Re: Ruleversion 1.2.6 [Open Discussion]

« on: April 20, 2013, 11:48:43 am  »

barb regen to full in 30sec anyway, check manner ptr vids vs mafia, life reg helps but monks win by bursting from 100% to 0 very fast, life reg buff is not that game breaking vs monks

I tested vs wiz mokkal on ptr a few rounds, RoF buff is pretty big, I had to go just charge rend run, anything more aggro, like bash was pretty risky, without warcry.

the very top players from each class have to go on ptr, test and give feedback, until than is just useless theory crafting

118

Rules & development / Re: Ruleversion 1.2.6 [Open Discussion]

« on: April 20, 2013, 08:08:00 am  »

Hi, I'm a barb

Realistically, life reg vs monks doesn't play such an important role, it's all about the burst damage of monks, like u probably saw manner on ptr, good monks still kill him.

Top wd like blud or euronymous I bet will still beat consistently any barb, especially with the new bats damage, which is insane.

Barb v barb is much easier to tank 3 crit rends and the future will be stun hota and maybe rend too.

The DH and wiz are the real problem.

Good wiz are able to disable barbs for an extended period of time and RoF buff with warcry banned might be enough to negate the life reg buff. I'm thinking maybe banning ignore pain too or instead or warcry, but testing is needed vs the new RoF.
 I know that nofear complained about Shadow88 finding a great build vs barbs, but I had no problems vs him, using warcry, so the wc ban is needed.

Vs dh is more tricky, wc ban already nerfs fury regen too much and legacy Nat can stalemate forever if they can't kill.

Overall when nerfing barb ehp I suggest banning passives like relentless and nerves of steel maybe also superstition and tough as nails vs certain classes, not fury generating skills which actually leads to more stalemates.

I'm sure that a solution can be found, but it should be extensively tested by the top players with close to optimal gear. not top gear vs average gear like in a lot of the league games... which can be misleading.