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16

Rules & development / Re: Rules proposal for the 3rd season - open discussion

« on: June 10, 2013, 11:32:21 am  »

Stalker
www.d3up.com/b/278413
Dps vs elites 353k with 1.27aps
Ehp 797k without dodge 979 with dodge

Mokkal
www.d3up.com/b/739550
Dps 274k with 1.41aps
Ehp 744k without dodge, 1036k with dodge

With similar ehp stalker has 30% more dps with lower aps, which is better vs barbs from what I have seen so far. His ehp is better vs rend while worse vs hota. mokkal has more life per sec which matters a lot.

17

Rules & development / Re: Rules proposal for the 3rd season - open discussion

« on: June 10, 2013, 10:55:29 am  »

@Dilavo, your interest for PvP is quite admirable, considering especially that you admited yourself, if I remember correctly, you sold your PvP gear before 1.08

You asked me about stalker, he is the best geared wiz I have seen so far on EU, there may be others. In his pve gear he has 500+ k unbuffed dps. In his PvP gear at first he used skorn and had, if I remember correctly, 250k unbuffed plus soj. With spear and source I think he had 300k plus soj. But that's what he told me in game, I couldn't check if those were real unbuffed values

About ehp... I know everything about ehp , I can easily reach one of the best ehp scores in eu ( and real PvP, vs elites, ehp) please don't tell me I don't know how to judge ehp

1. For the 2 players I was talking about, both using high dps and soj, a lot of gear slots are fixed legendary items. If one has 60k hp and one 100k, he will have more ehp... How do you get 250k plus soj with Bt set or stacking armor and all res on all slots?

2. I could easily see how much a crit hota did to him compared to other high dps wizards, I needed at least one more crit.

3. The way that ehp is constructed is another thing. Because vs hota lower ehp but with high dodge can work better, as mokkal has. But vs rend you need raw ehp not dodge ehp.
Overall that kind of raw ehp can perform better because it's more versatile.

As barb I have the same problem vs monk. If with my extreme mitigation and 150-160k hp a crit blue bell does, for example, 110k damage, to survive 2 crit bells I would need ~220k hp with same mitigation, which is extremely hard to get without dropping a lot of dps.

However, if I get to 40% dodge ( with wc) while monk has 50% cc, I can get to a point where the chance of getting 2 crit bells in a row is extremely small... that's where tr comes because if monk runs half an hour ( literally ) and stops from time to time to hit 2 bells he will eventually get those extremely lucky 2 shots, but that's the most boring way to play and the main reason why I quit d3cl.

The same is applied to wiz vs hota, if a crit hota does, let's say in an extreme example, 60k damage, it may be better and cheaper to get 65k hp with high dodge and high regen than to get 125hp and try to tank 2  crit shots.

I was saying that if stalker, or other wiz with access to gear worth  multiple tens of billions, gets the PvP experience of mokkal, knowing how to properly gear for this matchup, the games will be pretty one sided.

I think we really talked too much about one of the most balanced, and fun, match-ups in D3 PvP. Most barbs and wizards are happy with the no-wotb being only rule.

Making rule propositions to change this is absurd, while there are plenty of imbalaced match-ups we should focus on.

18

Rules & development / Re: Rules proposal for the 3rd season - open discussion

« on: June 09, 2013, 20:58:08 pm  »

Mokkal himself will tell you that the match-up is perfectly fine, not here you need to boost wizard but in other match-ups.

Mokkal was the only one to take 3 games from Vimer, other than Insane the wd. Ximae defeated Nofear (currently no2 in league) in the last game they played. Ximae said he has balanced games vs Vimer too.

I tested with mokkal, shadow and ximae a lot in 1.07, ptr and 1.08. Mokkal was the most efficient with his build, especially vs hota because of high dodge and high life regen.

It may not seem so, but the match-up is pretty skill intensive for both sides, after 1.08 i got completely destroyed by mokkal until i started playing a bit smarter and having more balanced duels. Also the using of high dodge vs RoF was something that i tested a lot even before 1.08 PTR and proved very efficient vs CM builds.

Mokkal even won 2 rounds vs Nofear in a PvP tournament with WotB allowed... I know that Nofear is probably a bit less geared as barb than Mokkal is geared as Wiz, but they are close and both have very good PvP experience.

Yes Mokkal has nice gear, maybe the best here in D3cl but there are others with better gear, but not better skills. For example I played vs Stalker, in his pvp gear i think he had 330k dps + Soj and 100k hp. Both more dps and more ehp than Mokkal yet it was pretty one sided for me. If he would have Mokkal's experience he would destroy any barb on server.

The match-up is not that easy to figure out, it took wizards a while to figure out an effective build revolving around critical mass ( i think shadow was one of the first, if not the very first to use it). Still playing against rend or hota means a different play-style and skills, also the gear choice can be very different (dodge vs hota). Not enough wizards have enough experience in this match-up and of course they can get frustrated.

If someone saw my games vs Stalker it would say, yeah wizards are so bad vs barb because a wiz with top gear lost very one sided to a high geared barb (but not absolute top)... when in fact it was just a problem of experience, skill usage, movement around the map etc.

Don't know why you would want to change the rules when the best Wizards in D3cl from last seasons will probably tell you that it is perfectly fine (Mokkal, Shadow88, Ximae)

But if you ask them they will tell you exactly what are the match-ups where they feel helpless and where a boost would be needed.

19

Rules & development / Re: Rules proposal for the 3rd season - open discussion

« on: June 09, 2013, 17:56:43 pm  »

@nofear, if you can't catch non tr monks without Sprint, how do you catch tr monks when you use sprint if tr gives more ms advantage than sprint?

As me and baharoth said before, barbs have many ways to close distance, charge, leap, threatening shout ms rune, ancient spear maybe, stuns like bash etc.

Actually the no Sprint no tr rule I think is more detrimental to monks, I didn't expect barbs to oppose it.

@green, I don't think it's a matter of testing for a lot of the proposed rules in first post.
For example, as shadow (top wiz) said, if barb vs wiz was already ok, as results and testing showed, what is the possible reasoning of nerfing barbs further?

Why don't all the players that helped you made those rules post the feedback of testing and reasoning of rules here, or make a new thread where only rule developers and known top players are allowed to post.

20

Rules & development / Re: Rules proposal for the 3rd season - open discussion

« on: June 09, 2013, 14:25:29 pm  »

+1 to Shadow

A lot of the inappropriate spam was caused by the rules posted because they seem to be really out of touch with the current state of PvP. I don't know who are those players that came up with those rules but a lot of them seem to be really weird and clearly not a progression from the season 2 rules.

And of course the rules should be balanced only around top players with top gear, there is absolutely no way to try and balance for all levels, it's already hard to come up with good rules for the top.

My rules proposition for the match-ups regarding barbs.

Barb vs Wizard
- the skill Wrath of the Berserker is banned

Barb vs Demon Hunter
- If the Demon Hunter is using the skill Rapid Fire, all other skills are allowed
- If the Demon Hunter is not using the skill Rapid Fire, Barbarian is allowed to use the skill WarCry only with "no rune" and the skill Relentless is banned

Barb vs Monk
- the skill Wrath of the Berserker is banned
- the skill Sprint is banned
- the skill Tempest Rush is banned
(this is debatable, maybe other barbs and monks are fine just with wotb banned. From my personal experience the match-up is balanced but can turn out into a very long stalemate, that can last a lot more than the 45mins per duel specified on rules)

Barb vs Witch Doctor
- The Witch Doctor can choose between the skills FIre Bats or Hex, he can use one bot not both at the same time
- The Witch Doctor can choose between the skills Spirit Walk and Spirit Vessel, he can use one bot not both at the same time

21

Rules & development / Re: Rules proposal for the 3rd season - open discussion

« on: June 08, 2013, 09:43:49 am  »

lol, you mean that in PvP gear you have more dps and even lower ehp? trust me, your crits are low, I played vs you, remember? your gear is very far away from top monks, at least what I saw vs barb.

you maybe have 180k without soj with 1.17aps

mnich has now 162k with 30% soj plus 6% cc to wave of light, with 0.9 atk speed. that is around 210-220 without soj with 0.9 atk speed, that is the equivalent ( of actual hits ) of around 280k paper dps with 1.17aps, not exactly but roughly.

I didn't calculate the exact dps but actual basic crit hits, and he has more than 60% more damage than u.

22

Rules & development / Re: Rules proposal for the 3rd season - open discussion

« on: June 08, 2013, 08:58:25 am  »

I played vs him and I can tell you he can 2 crit shot ANY barb. I played vs a lot of monks, he is at least on same level as Tomas, but with different style. I find it a lot easier to fight against tomas if i take into account cds because he doesnt use tempest rush, the games are more tactical and fast.

I know a lot about EHP and can see what different monks can do, Mnich's blue bells do a lot if they hit and if he gets 2 crits it's over, no matter what ehp barb has. At first he played less safe while i played safe and it was 3-0 for me, after that he started running around more while i chased without considering ignore pain that much, mostly relying on my dodge, eventually he got those lucky crits. But that style is very boring yet it can be very efficient because a crit blue bell easily does more than 50%, no barb can tank 2 crit blue bells from a top monk, barbs have to have either IP ready or dodge at least one of the bells.

I'm pretty sure he could have killed you nofear, dunno about vimer, but if he gets lucky barbs ehp doesnt really matter. It has to do a lot with luck with dodge and crits, one day it could be 5-0 for barb next day 5-0 for monk, it doesnt really say anything, but the matchup is balanced... the only problem is the stalemate potential and being so boring when monks use tempest rush, that is my only problem...

forti, I don't mean to offend you, but a monk like mnich, for example, has around 60% more damage on his crits than you have, I just calculated his crits and yours, you are unfortunately very far from top damage of monks, and there are others with even harder hits than mnich.

23

Rules & development / Re: Rules proposal for the 3rd season - open discussion

« on: June 06, 2013, 22:42:51 pm  »

I think that others have tested and wave of light is considered melee, but I might be wrong, I will test that when i have the chance. A lot of barbs tested and used Thunder God's Vigor belt vs monks for its high reduction vs melee, but i will test myself to see if i can definitely say if WoL is melee or ranged.

http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/darkraven-2885/TheBigGuy/3588495, the setup i usually use vs monks

 Dunno about aps being important, they don't stand still while u bash them away and they have 50% or more dodge anyway, bash is nice when it stuns but rend is what kills them.

also do the math for vimer, which is best geared pvp barb in EU

http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/vimer-2697/Artorius/693236

although he probably can add a lot more ehp vs monks

I didn't mean to offend you, I just say that maybe mafia, for ex, is better geared as monk than you are as barb. And I dunno if US monks are better than SIN for example, or tomas, or even mnich... I haven't seen their setups vs barbs.

24

Rules & development / Re: Rules proposal for the 3rd season - open discussion

« on: June 06, 2013, 21:27:46 pm  »

indeed i took into account the res from dprogress which is an average of all the resists (i think), i didn't use the specific holy resistance, you have 1070 arcane/holy if i added correctly, which would add to around 5.5m base ehp vs holy/arcane melee elites with dodge

what you see on dprogress is my base gear, 158k life, ~900 all res, 940 arcane, 7242 armor, 21.04 dodge (550dex), 17 red vs melee on gear which is 16.7 real, 35 red vs elites on gear which is around 30 real, 32 block but we will not take that into account. base crit hit ~132k

with my dex gear vs monks i have 157k life, 902all res, 946 arcane, 6900 armor, 28.9 dodge (945dex), 18 red vs melee which is around 17 real, 35 vs elites - which is 30 real - which adds to about 6.7mil base ehp vs holy/arcane melee elites with dodge and without block, while still having a base crit hit of ~117k vs yours with 90k, and I consider myself average-high geared, not at the very top like vimer is.

i have done ehp calculations for a long time, the best way is to get both high hp, high mitigation and high dodge, but that is very hard. For example vimer has a nice balance of extreme mitigation with high hp but rather low dodge, you have good dodge and good hp but rather low mitigation. You have no reduction vs melee which vs monks matters and most of all you only have 7% red vs elites which matters quite a lot.

25

Rules & development / Re: Rules proposal for the 3rd season - open discussion

« on: June 06, 2013, 19:49:08 pm  »

@nofear. Tempest rush gives 60% ms, sprint gives 50%. barb can catch a monk easier this way while he still has enough skills to close distance, as baharoth said, like charge and leap, also bash to stun, plus threatening slow rune etc.

@link, your ehp and your dps seem kinda low.
You have around 4.5m base ehp vs melee elites with dodge but without block, I have around 6m with my base gear, around 7m with the dex gear I use vs monks, vimer has 6.3m with his current gear from dprogress and he probably can go a lot higher vs monks. These are calculated with a manual ehp calculator you can test yourself if you want.

http://rubensayshi.github.io/d3-ehp-calculator/#intro

I suggest you try reduction vs elites, the more you have the more valuable it becomes, for my gear 7% vs elites is easily worth around 120ar, or 240vit, or even more depending on skills used. Also the ehp comes a lot more from mitigation rather than pure hp which is a lot better, plus bt set has a lot more life reg on gear. I think that absolute best rare belts and ice climbers can reach similar ehp levels as bt set but more based on pure hp which in the end is worse than mitigation plus life reg on gear.

As for your dps, 55k with 1.5aps seems pretty low, your best normal attack crit hit is around 91k, I have 132k while vimer, for ex, has 145k basic crit in his dprogress gear with a lot more ehp than you have.

I think that at top level the matchup is balanced. From what I see in US league I think the monks there are a bit more geared than the barbs, that's why you got those statistics.

For me at least, the most stupid matchup is versus tempest rush. the games can be endless, much more than vs legacy dhs where, even though they have similar ms advantage they have to stop and shoot a lot more often.

26

Rules & development / Re: Rules proposal for the 3rd season - open discussion

« on: June 06, 2013, 08:52:25 am  »

I would say ban tempest rush and sprint, the movement speed skills which make it such a long boring match-up, dunno if others would agree with this. Ignore pain is the only way to survive an sss from a top monk, if u ban that it will be just 1 shot fest before barb even gets the chance to do anything.

27

Rules & development / Re: Rules proposal for the 3rd season - open discussion

« on: June 06, 2013, 07:52:46 am  »

what was your setup when u tested link?

I agree I do have some problems vs monk, but not because of their dps but because of their stalemate ability with tempest rush, if they play safe I can never catch them and eventually I will do a mistake.

Vs non-tempest builds it is actually a lot more fun, balanced and fast. I tested vs Tomas a while ago, his build was normal bells and sss, no tr. In first games he got me more, last time it was 5-4 for me, after that he switched to palm to counter my dodge and got me more ( i didn't try to optimize my build vs palm but it can be done).

I also tested my setup vs his blue bells, standing still he got 2 crit blue bells in about 20 shots... because I have ~40% dodge vs monks and his cc was around 50 i think. Basically the chance to get 2 crit blue bells in a row is extremely small, but if they just run around the map for 1 hour they will eventually get it because it's very hard for barbs to catch them.

in my d3cl duel vs mnich, i started 3-0 but lost 3-5. Basically at first he played less safe while i played safe, after that he started running and waiting for cds, while i got bored of playing safe and made mistakes, the same happened vs psykes with his tankier stalemate build, the duel lasted for more than 1.5 hours... which was actually the reason why I left the league... I enjoyed much more getting 0-5 vs insane than chasing a tr monk for hours around the map.

My EHP with dodge (but without block) vs melee elites  (dunno if bells and/or sss are melee or ranged) with the skills used is around 14mil, slightly more with block but block doesn't do much vs monks; a lot more if I would have used superstition (~17mil) instead of unforgiving, and tried to stalemate. dps was 58k+6%, so around 61 let's say. (vs psykes with his stalemate-ish build i went to about 90k dps still tanking pretty well if I played safe but still almost impossible to kill him when he played safe)

156k life, 940ar, 11.3k armor, 39,6% dodge, -16,94 vs melee, -30% vs elites (I have 35% on gear but it's multiplicative not additive)

my personal approach is dodge because a crit blue bell does anyway a lot more than 50% damage. Ideally you would want to be able to tank 2 crit blue bells without IP but I dunno if it's possible, maybe vimer with his more "raw" ehp gear can do it.

The biggest problem is if they crit with first bell you have to IP to survive a second, not very likely, crit and after that you risk getting sss.

As I mentioned before, my personal problem with this match-up, is tempest rush, not their damage. I use unforgiving, warcry dodge and threatening shout for fury gain, with sprint and charge to catch them, but it doesn't seem enough, maybe other barbs can share what skills they use in this match-up.

and yeah, nerfing threatening vs tempest rush monks is a joke...

28

General discussion / Re: Is it godly stormshield?

« on: June 05, 2013, 09:56:07 am  »

yeah, these rolls are rare, it is hard to put a price on it.

mine is 5/7 red but red vs melee is not that important, it applies only vs monk basically, rend is ranged. on the other hand it has about 130 more armor which is worth around 25 more vit ehp wise, but it's pretty similar.

maybe post on ah with 200mil start price and no buyout.

29

General discussion / Re: Is it godly stormshield?

« on: June 05, 2013, 09:41:32 am  »

it's pretty good and stats like that are rare, it is pretty hard to price check.

I spent a while ago 42mil on one with 320str, 140vit 32block, but it's worth a lot more.

you can contact nofear I think he was looking for one, he currently borrowed mine.

they can roll better, ar is at the low end and also the armor is low. but overall it is very good.

30

Rules & development / Re: Rules proposal for the 3rd season - open discussion

« on: June 03, 2013, 10:53:04 am  »

do some test games with vimer vs a top wd using ef, like euro did... with hex banned, maybe even bats allowed, I'm sure wds have a lot of cc available to make it work.