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[Blud]

Just did some diabloprogress digging..

Top DH's for PvP : 320k+ unbuffed 1,6m EHP...3,5-4m PvP dummy
http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/scorpion-2883/Yan/17113771
http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/kamhul-2452/Clemenza/637337

and when I look into Lilith profile: 220k dps unbuffed, 560k ehp, top 1000 pvp dummy (800k !!! - it's ~5 less than top DH!)..LOL
http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/lilith-2321/Widmowa/1306251

When I wear me gear, I'm top 10 pvp Dummy barb in Europe...

Now, you make nerfs, based on fact that I preety much own every DH in this league, even the best legacy nat DH..but come on, where DH from this league stands to guys from top of the rankings?

ofc top 10 pvp dummy barb will own top 1000 pvp dumy dh..who is wearing inna pant's and cheap no resists no vitality witching hour for pvp? that's not good, You need ehp, and not die from 1 crit rend.

anyway, this just proofs, that this "balancing" is made by admin who played few games and decided to give it a go...once again I will say, balancing should be done on the highest lvl of gear on server, not by people signing to league..

Actually, that information, even though Devil presents it quite arrogantly lol (no offense bro), is water clear, and a hint that some players are neglecting EHP in order to maintain DPS or Mobility (Legacy nat).

520k EHP on a DH means around 250k EHP when facing DoTs. I have more than 3million EHP buffed + 2.7k regen from gear keeping 200k dps...

If you are going to balance things around such huge differences then we are going to have serious problems. DHs might be the most played class but for a reason I do not know, you don't see many tanky ones, I only know one (Gieri). This guy uses a shield versus me and I would have serious problems versus him using some rules. He has sick res, he even stacks specific res (poison and physical), very nice regen etc. etc. You would be surprised about my haunt dmg versus him.

You've stated several times that balance will be made at same level of gear. But same level of gear does not mean same amount of Gold. You have to understand that PvP gear differs from PvE gear. Just as an example, I use Blackthorne boots versus DH or Monks, one of best in Europe, and they cost me 35mil some months ago.

PvP is about EHP & DPS. And please, check the 8 first positions of the league... I now there must be some balance because atm I feel bad when I duel versus Sin or Tomas, good friends (monks) since they have a really hard time. But just inspect the profiles of the first 8 in the current league... I've played all of them and most people are really well geared, with many different combinations depending on the situation and the opponent.

Only class that really stand behind is Wizard with current rules, well.. no rules.

DHs must understand that 500k or 250K REAL EHP will not work in many matchups. So having an alternative set for some particular cases might be an option.

[Euronymous]

I think it's going to be so hard to balance things out, but it might be possible. However, we can't take this approach of removing all the emblematic skills of each class. You guys have gone too far.. The rules WD vs DH are just nonsense, I wonder who the hell came out with those ideas xD. I know you guys are doing a great job, and I appreciate it, but those are so imba.

Balance can be achieved being subtle...

WD vs Barb, removing hex and maybe voodoo slam dance, and WotB might be enough
WD vs DH, removing dogs might be enough.
WD vs Wiz, removing either SW or SV.
WD vs Monk, removing either SW or SV.

And things like this... You should go step by step, in my honest opinion. Adding new rules if balance hasn't been achieved. I wonder who tested the rules and came up with these ideas because they are not realistic.

And be careful with the rules because you can't make people's gear useless... That's blizzard's job lol. So banning the use of shield, as well as banning inspiring presence, shouldn't get to the final list. If a barbarian has 3k regen on gear, then inspiring presence is banned, or something like this, but don't ban this passive straight away because some people have been gearing for this, and you just wipe their effort.

Besides, don't get personal and start offending people, for that we can all go to the official forums .

After some further consideration I think even those measures are going too far. Why should a WD play without some signature skills in all match-ups? The first thing I'd look at is if it's possible to even out match-ups with rune changes.

These are the changes I'd like to see tested. My goal is to preserve the playstyle of our class without destroying/favoring certain sets of gear:

vs. Barb:
- Hex: no rune allowed.
- not allowed to use a shield
Barb vs. WD:
- no changes
Reasoning: The ladder and latest results shows that barbs are catching up quickly. They were behind at the beginning because they had to completely regear for pvp. No hex rune means that barbs take only 10% more dmg instead of 20% while hexed. No shield is to prevent stalemates or lame tactics like item-switching during wotb. I was an advocator of "no hex, no wotb" but right now I doubt that it's working at a high-end level, and that's where you want to balance.

vs. Monk:
- no changes / possibly no shield allowed
Monk vs. WD:
- no changes
Reasoning: It's a very close match-up. The sample size of high-end duels in this match-up is small, but good monks usually take a few rounds of witch doctors. I'd give it time and see if monks are able to come up with a better tactic or start winning those match-ups with more practice. If anything I'd ban shields for WDs so they can't start to tank monks.

vs. DH:
- Haunt: only allowed in combination with the runes "resentful spirit" or "grasping spirit"
- Zombie Dogs: no life link rune
DH vs. WD:
- no changes
Reasoning: Again, this is a close match-up that can go either way at the highest level. Witch doctors have a huge advantage vs. unexperienced DHs, but that's not what rules should be based on. Zombie dogs with no life link rune means that they can still act as a meat-shield, but won't absorb 10% of the damage dealt to witch doctors. Another important factor is that banning dogs would ban a whole WD archetype (zerodog WD), which is prevented that way. Haunt with 2s duration or slow isn't forcing the DH to cast SS multiple times.

vs. Wiz:
- not allowed to use a neck/possibly other more or less important slots, depending on the % you want to nerf WD DPS/EHP
- Zombie Dogs: no life link rune
Wiz vs. WD:
- no changes
Reasoning: Right now a huge disadvantage for Wiz. It will be tough to balance it skill-wise because pretty much any skill is extremely dangerous for Wiz. That's why I think banning a single piece of gear might be a good solution as it acts like a flat reduction of the WDs offensive and defensive capabilities. There are no amulets to build around, all WDs will take a similar hit from it. My old WD would have been nerfed by 33% in DPS and 15%EHP. The WD gets to keep his arsenal of skills but for a Wiz it feels like fighting against a mid-level WD. And if you look at the stats, a high-end Wiz like kaio is able to beat lesser WDs regularly. Zombie Dogs limited for the same reason as vs. DH, meat-shield but not damage reduction.

vs. WD:
no changes
Reasoning: Not much to say here, let WDs figure out how to beat their own.

This is what I would try at first, very subtle changes. Feel free to test them if you like.

[Blud]

Some interesting ideas Euro, I'll test them tomorrow.

I can't draw any conclusions atm WD vs Barb. I did no hex no WotB and won like 95% of the duels but I only tested 3 barbarians. I still need to practice with Vilmer.

I know removing spells is going to be disappointing but I don't see anything else brining some balance effectively.

[ricebowl]

Can we ban the chemical burn rune on impale in Monk Vs. DH?

I think possible ban of Sharpshooter might even things out

Crit chemical burns are like crit haunts except the DH is 10x more mobile and invincible than a WD.  Chemical burn is the issue.

But chemical burn can miss(basic dmg no DoT), and i must aim perfect to hit u:)

You don't have to "aim perfect" to hit me.  Impale has a high travel speed and you can cast it while under smokescreen (aka while you're running at 60% increased movespeed from tactical advantage).  The dot does upwards of over 70k on crit even if the projectile gets dodged.  It's utter bullshit, just like haunt, except DH's can go invulnerable and kite 100x more effectively.

[MoKKaL]

the only problem that I (wizzard) have is the following:
2handed (skorn or similar 2handers) crit DOT's (haunt, rend, exploding palm)

i dont mind, if DH's Impale damage is high too - because most of the time i have some okish chances against that.
u have to aim with it, and it can be dodged!
none of the dot's above can be even dodged ...

a nice example can be one of my last matches:
i was leading 4-1 against a WD (all fights were damn close!) and LOST 5-4 cause he took out his skorn the last 4 fights.
no matter what i did - more ehp, more damage, balanced setup - i died too fast due to damage over time, when my mirror images werent rdy.

balanced setup: 4770 armor, 783 AR, 50k life, 2750 lreg --> pvp ehp: 669.000 --> buffed dps with 1.2 aps: 244.000
defensive setup: 5970 armor, 852 AR, 65k life, 2400 lreg --> pvp ehp: 1.072.000 --> buffed dps with 1.2 aps: 170.000
offensive setup: 4600 armor, 737 AR, 46k life, 2470 lreg --> pvp ehp: 581.000 --> buffed dps with 1.2 aps: 260.000 (more crit damage involved)

id consider my gear as not too bad, even though my life isnt that high.
but due the fact, that i have decent armor, ar and lreg (non buffed from skills!),
my ehp is still high compared to my low life.

the problem with those 3 mentioned dots is ... u cant even dodge it (im on 26,6% dodge aswell)

so, if a dot crits with a 1hander - im fine ... the damage is NEVER that high compared to a 2-hander,
because the avg damage on the main hand weapon is alot lower!

i dont have to mention, that i almost cant beat high ehp, high lreg barbs
in this case my gear (dps) is a tad too low. (but im ok with that)

please take this 2handed, high crit damage DOT's out

thx fo reading

[IMP-Executioner]

according DH vs Barb:

I never used max 24% run so far. I hate lacunis and like my rare bracers and use only 11% speed on boots. And from my point of view its still okie vs DH. I´m still able to kill all top 20 DHs even in 2-handed mode. Ofc not always and surely not 5-0. But minimum 50% win-chance.

I dont think you break the barb if u cap runspeed at 12%. And you wont break my Barb by banning inspiring presence because i can have >3000 lifereg on gear.

[predsr]

Can we ban the chemical burn rune on impale in Monk Vs. DH?

I think possible ban of Sharpshooter might even things out

Crit chemical burns are like crit haunts except the DH is 10x more mobile and invincible than a WD.  Chemical burn is the issue.

I think the issue here is that Sharpshooter allows 100% crit on first hits, i can shoot you, and even if you dodge, you will get hit with a CRIT dot, but also, the sharpshooter buff will remain at 100%, i can kite and shoot again and keep crit dotting you unless you dont dodge, and when you dont dodge you will get crit implaed and crit dotted, Sharpshooter basicly allows hit and run tacs, i think this might blanace it out vs barbs also.  this is all from legacy nats pov btw

[devilek666]

Devil you are really funy guy:)

,,ofc top 10 pvp dummy barb will own top 1000 pvp dumy dh..who is wearing inna pant's and witching hour for pvp? that's not good, You need ehp, and not die from 1 crit rend.''

Scorpion top 1 pvp dummy lost with u. I with 2k pvp dummy, inna's and witching hour won 5-2. bitch, please!

Scorpion lost, because he was playing bunker style with completly different gear setup...he had 1/2 of this dps and I was switching whole gear before WOTB, and I was able to kill him only because we were bored..I start watching movie and he finnaly came off the island..I lost with You, cause  I didn't use berserker..Anyway, You see that even with inspiring presence, and lack of PvP items, You could beat me.

Maybe I'm arogant, but You guys must understand that for PvP You need different gear..You need balance in DPS/EHP.
Most of DH's don't do this cause they have smoke screen, vault etc...Sometims when I fight with Sin or tomas, 1 peace of item decide if they 1 shoot me or not...Like SoJ..If I put it on, I can't survive Sin(Darke) blue bell.

DH's usually run with Ina Pants, Witching Hour, legacy nats with poor stats, stone of jordan..You do insane dmg and You ignore ehp and that's Your choice..but when barb gets to You, you are in trouble..that's the way it is until You find balance..Some peaces of gear are the best in Europe..like my spear 250vit, 1120 dps and 90% cdmg..I have few other extremly effective peaces for different kind of situations...I don't use ANY ITEM from farming in PvP.

another thing, I did some calculations and the reason why Vimer had succes with You or others on new rules is...

He has some amazing life-regen peaces..He can stack 2500-3000k life regen with ~100-120k hp. That's how much life regen You will have with inspiring presence at this point..Thus he has +25-30% armor from passive instead of inspiring presence..

Now when i fight with DH, i have around 160k hp and ~3,8k hp regen, but with 30% less armor..I believe it even out..
So as soon as I get top tear life regen items, situation will repeat..glass canon DH's who don't have enough DPS won't be able to kill me..You will come up with another set of rules banning another thing cause inspiring presence won't be enough to cover gear difference between 2 players..

cause that what You wanna do, make rules, so medium geared DH can compete with top geared barbs..

that's not the way to go..

p.s. I played against Blud on new rules yesterday...He basicly face palm me..When WD uses fire bats with echoing fury..barb stand no chance in coming towards him. 395k dps + SoJ..without inspiring presence 1 haunt have eatem me alive..let alone off-screen spirit barrage.

[kaio]

First of all I'll respond only at post not out of topic and that call me in cause for Wiz rules.
I'd like to see less blame.. There are many things I'd like to say but this is not the right place...

@Euronymous: first of all I'd like to thx u for ur help even if u don't have a WD any more and even if u are not in league for now .

As streaming show I'm hardly working to test all advice that this comunity give to me and more streming/videos will come to prove that and show u what we find.
The idea of banning a single slot or in general items is really last chance we try to use cose it's really really hard to check if a player equip or change items during the fight... and even if u see it u shuld have a video showing that... or a judge in arena that follow the duel... and as u know he will get hitted by spells and fuck all the duel.
It's normal that a top geared wiz win vs a medium geared WD (if both sides are similar skilled).
The problems is if in a duel there are no possibility to counter the ather (like a top wiz vs top wd now)

I'll try that ban on dog rune.

I'v made some duels with blud and with keen and I think both agree with me that duel was pretty funny and ballanced and it's the best we founded for now but ofc not the best we can make.

So continue to hit me with new ideas and I'll test them but prefere no items bans

[GREEN2172]

You need balance in DPS/EHP.

Ofc we can make char like this: http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/rain-6984/TriggerHappy/20704248
237k life with passive 1% hp reg + sentry 1% hp reg = 2,37k+2,37k=4,8k life regen without items, and with items it can be 5k+

Why we don't do it?
Because our class don't have AoE Dota with 500-700%+ dmg like yours;] We MUST have more DPS and less EHP.

Another thing: for DH the main aim is to have a lot of dyscypline OR dysc regen - we are losing a lot of EHP using natalya's set.

[devilek666]

You need balance in DPS/EHP.

Ofc we can make char like this: http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/rain-6984/TriggerHappy/20704248
237k life with passive 1% hp reg + sentry 1% hp reg = 2,37k+2,37k=4,8k life regen without items, and with items it can be 5k+

Why we don't do it?
Because our class don't have AoE Dota with 500-700%+ dmg like yours;] We MUST have more DPS and less EHP.

Another thing: for DH the main aim is to have a lot of dyscypline OR dysc regen - we are losing a lot of EHP using natalya's set.

Do You know what word balance means? You point extreme case where guy has 42k dps and his PvP dummy is 1000...
That's Your argument?
I let this to comment out for other players.

[Lilith]

@devil

,,I lost with You, cause  I didn't use berserker..Anyway, You see that even with inspiring presence, and lack of PvP items, You could beat me.''

So how vimer and drake(worse gear than yours) won with me without berserker and inspiring presents, when u couldnt do that only without IP?

Both dules looks that:

1. Barb low on hp use ignore pain
2. Barb go up-left corner and to hit him i must come close to rend range. It's barb's bunker style. Many monks do same.
3. If i come i got rend, if crit its really bad, if i w8 he why for cooldown of potions, ignore pain, jump and charge.

Im really hothead and I can't w8 ages to my chance so i go and take rend;p Maybe I'm noob, but this map really pisses me off. If left up corner will be dead zone i can agree with no nerfs for barb.

[predsr]

Just did some diabloprogress digging..

Top DH's for PvP : 320k+ unbuffed 1,6m EHP...3,5-4m PvP dummy
http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/scorpion-2883/Yan/17113771
http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/kamhul-2452/Clemenza/637337

and when I look into Lilith profile: 220k dps unbuffed, 560k ehp, top 1000 pvp dummy (800k !!! - it's ~5 less than top DH!)..LOL
http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/lilith-2321/Widmowa/1306251

When I wear me gear, I'm top 10 pvp Dummy barb in Europe...

Now, you make nerfs, based on fact that I preety much own every DH in this league, even the best legacy nat DH..but come on, where DH from this league stands to guys from top of the rankings?

ofc top 10 pvp dummy barb will own top 1000 pvp dumy dh..who is wearing inna pant's and cheap no resists no vitality witching hour for pvp? that's not good, You need ehp, and not die from 1 crit rend.

anyway, this just proofs, that this "balancing" is made by admin who played few games and decided to give it a go...once again I will say, balancing should be done on the highest lvl of gear on server, not by people signing to league..

PvP dummy dont mean shit in comparing player skill

[mannercookie]

I haven't read the discussion in the thread so far since I've missed 10 pages and I don't really want to read through it.

Here's my two cents on the rules of this league so far.

WDs basically are useless in this league, even without their nerfs the WD class is a very weak PVP Class, I don't see how nobody on this forum sees how bad the WD class is at the highest gear levels even without these nerfs.

Taking away inspiring presence on a barb would mean a barb would have to completely re-gear to play in this league.

A PVP-tuned barb set is based around high hp, which scales extremely well with inspiring presence and relentless, it is by far the most efficient way to build a barb. The league's rules force a barb to pigeon hole into gear he would never use outside the league.

The changes made vs wizards doesn't fix anything, they are still useless vs most classes even with these "balance" changes.

The monk nerf is really LOL, I'm sorry but no good monks go cheat death and all monks must have serenity, so yeah this rule is pointless since it's really not even a rule...

The rules of this league also don't dictate how skill selection will go, the person who enters chapel first and allows the other person to spec afterwards is at a disadvantage.

There are no rules in place for stale-mates, except a really vague rule about avoiding fights.

I really don't understand why one of the weakest class received the most nerfs, while one of the best PVP classes received no nerfs.

These rules don't really reflect the matchups accurately, I don't even think anyone in the league in EU has fine-tuned pvp sets to be able to test vs each other and see how the matchups are at a very high gear/skill level to dictate which classes need nerfs/buffs.

Buffs on DHs, these changes make no sense to me really. Also the fact that DHs don't have any nerfs vs monks make no sense either since DHs are very dominant in that matchup. The DH / Barb matchup is very balanced unless one outgears the other, taking away inspiring will pretty much make this a one-sided fight for the DH.

Nerfs on WDs, if you think about how their class works are one of the weakest classes in the game, if you fail to see why that is, your looking at D3 PVP wrong. Gotta look past their current damage output and realize how weak of a class they are once their damage is mitigated or manageable.

[Blud]

@MannerCookie How do you handle perma fear againts a wall, 400k dps + soj & mojo = 35% Elite + 22% SB with 425% weapon dmg skills? Or 270% continued DoT that perma fears you against a wall?

Ignore Pain 7 seconds. How do you handle that for the following 23 seconds?

I told you I look forward to dueling you in the next PTR or when u have a better barb in EU, but there's no need to be so arrogant and come here and call us Noobs.

That said, the Barbarian is an awesome class and I've always repeated that it might > WD. But I've also seen many of your videos and you get pwned so much from shitty WDs so it's not like your barbarian is a demigod xD. From my experience it might be true that most good barbarians beat WDs, but there aren't many pvp-focus WD you know?

From your comments it seems that the Barbarian, the Monk, the Wizard and the Demon Hunter are complete different classes in the US. Damn, I knew Blizzard pays more attention to US forums, but this?