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Author Topic: Inspiring presence for 1.08  (Read 10866 times)

ricebowl

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Inspiring presence for 1.08
« on: April 22, 2013, 02:02:52 am »

Since there is little chance of the inspiring presence buff for 1.08 being canceled, I figured it's probably a good idea to make a separate thread for it so it doesn't clutter up the main rules thread.  Whining about Blizzard not caring about PvP doesn't help anyone.

My current suggestion is to only allow inspiring presence or ignore pain but not both equipped at same time.
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DarkRaven

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Re: Inspiring presence for 1.08
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2013, 07:05:47 am »

Top WD and monks rely on burst vs b and they will still be able to kill barbs.

top WD like euronymous and blud destroy top barbs easily even with the no hex no wotb rule, 4% life reg will actually balance that a bit. Especially with the new bats which can kill in one stun sometimes.

Monk vs barb is a lot of times full burst then wait 30 for cd and try again, any barb already has 1200-1500 regen on gear plus 2% it means they are already at full in 30 sec. U can also check mafia vs manner on ptr, he still killed manner a lot. There may be builds that take advantage better of the life reg but top players have to test if an ehp skill ban is necessary. But overall it looks pretty balanced at the very top.

Barb vs barb will probably rely more on stun and burst hota rather than rend.

Wiz and dh lack the burst damage but banning some ehp skillz in d3cl should be enough. The problem with warcry ban is that it nerfs fury management too much and barbs have no chance to catch a legacy dh.

But banning all defensive passives and all runes on warcry except the fury gain may do the trick. I'm sure that with testing and tweaking a solution can be found.

In barb vs dh, a defensive legacy dh has a lot more stalemate potential, if they don't want to lose they will never lose, the movement speed advantage is pretty big.

Wizz still got the RoF buff which coupled with some ehp reductions to barbs can make that matchup pretty balanced

I know it's a dumb move from blizz but I think we all want top players to test builds and possible bans on ptr until saying that PvP is dead.
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Forti

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Re: Inspiring presence for 1.08
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2013, 08:55:23 am »

Can somebody tell me how to run 30 sec from barb? He will chase us. I really dont know how... on tempestu rush yes? Then I need 18 spirit regen with 1 ias (10 for spelling tr and 8/sec for regen all spirit) - this is impossible.

I dont cry. I just thinking that rule inspiring presence or ignore pain is fair enough and will solve all the problems.
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Iria

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Re: Inspiring presence for 1.08
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2013, 09:06:06 am »

Vs DH, any high EHP Barb can become unkillable even without Ignore Pain OR Overpower Crushing Advance, they simply mitigate too much damage over time now. Monks at least have bursty damage.
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N0F3aR

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Re: Inspiring presence for 1.08
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2013, 19:18:30 pm »

Forti, pls stop posting about Monks vs Barbs. Obviously you are not enough experienced in that fight. Decent monks have no problems with spirit regen while using tempest rush. Its hard for a barb to catch that monk. Actually Monks vs Barbs its all about burst dmg - if you can kill the barb at one combo, no matter his life regen. Anyway if you cant kill him even when he has no Ignor pain, its pointless to play against him. I already told you - your hero is far away from good pvp potential and you face barbs that have reached it. Its normal to lose.
SO PLS, STOP POSTING! (about barbs and monks)

Barbs vs DH
Actually Dark Raven gave 1 good opinion. Banning defansive passive abilities like "Relentless", "Nerves of steel" could give some balance. I will test with top DH from eu once i have time.

Barbs vs Wizards
RoF is buffed with like 60%. That means wizards will do a lot more dmg to barbs. So maybe here buffing life regen is like balancing againts decent wizards. Wizard will have higher burst dmg potential, barb will have higher life regen. + wizards got buffed the teleport, so now they hunt and run easier. Iits again a matter of tests.

! And something important - pls note that the top barbs from eu league (vimer,devil,exe etc) are actually very good players, so its not only the class. Its also how do you use the class. (here i wont tell the rest of the players are noobs or like this - no, i face good opponents on the league. For example playing against a DH like Med its always good for me, since he is decent and his moves are good. Sometimes i need to improve my skill during the fight agaisnt him for being able to kill him. And dont say - but you win 5-1/5-2 against him. Maybe yes, but each round its hard)

Thx for the attention.
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ximae

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Re: Inspiring presence for 1.08
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2013, 19:47:29 pm »

I think there needs to be test league 2.0 with the same previous rules to test all this out, maybe not make it to long and look at whats happening and adjust from there. I cant speak from the other matchups but from the wiz vs barb perspective the buff to channeling might even out the regen with a little regearing and focusing on dps really bursting down fast as anytime the barb runs away its gona be like starting again. Really my worries are for the top notch barbs with incredible ehp who are already so hard to kill in 1.07, but we will have wait and see
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Iria

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Re: Inspiring presence for 1.08
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2013, 20:04:02 pm »

I think the Inspiring Presence buff really made the DH match up impossible. The other classes still have some options:

Barb - HotA still crushes Barbs with or without regen.
Monk - relies on burst damage where life regeneration won't be an issue if the Barb dies fast
WD - new Fire Bats + hex can really melt a Barb even with high regen
Wiz - new Ray of Frost can really melt a Barb even with high regen, can also freeze the Barb with Frost Nova.

DH - has no fast burst damage options and the new Rapid Fire is weaker than the regen and immobilizes the DH for a free rend.
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N0F3aR

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Re: Inspiring presence for 1.08
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2013, 20:18:54 pm »

Iria, did you read what i have wrote?
IF we barbs have no defense passive ability like Relentless and Nerves of steel ( what actually barbs use on pvp), DH will do a lot more dmg to barbs. So maybe this could be a variant for balancing the fight. No Relentless - no the big problem when barbs are under 20% life. No Nerves of steel - Dh do a lot more dmg to the barbs since that is like - 5% + protection.
I think we need to test that.
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Forti

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Re: Inspiring presence for 1.08
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2013, 20:21:27 pm »

Nofear meyby you have to learn how kill monks? I see only you typing about that...  go off from me, ok? I just wrote what I think.
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Iria

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Re: Inspiring presence for 1.08
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2013, 21:39:54 pm »

Iria, did you read what i have wrote?
IF we barbs have no defense passive ability like Relentless and Nerves of steel ( what actually barbs use on pvp), DH will do a lot more dmg to barbs. So maybe this could be a variant for balancing the fight. No Relentless - no the big problem when barbs are under 20% life. No Nerves of steel - Dh do a lot more dmg to the barbs since that is like - 5% + protection.
I think we need to test that.

Of course, we can do testing, what I was writing about was the current system with no class specific rules. Barb vs DH would always end up with Barb either winning or drawing, unless of course we impose some rules. The ban of Nerves of Steel and Relentless could maybe work but we need to ban both or the Barb will just replace one of the banned skills with Tough as Nails. If that still isn't enough, I'd ban Threatening Shout as well, War Cry is fine to keep since Barbs need it for fury.

Thus here is my list of things to ban in priority:

1) Nerves of Steel
2) Relentless
3) Threatening Shout
4) War Cry

I think banning all 4 would be too extreme but banning 2 or 3 could work.
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N0F3aR

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Re: Inspiring presence for 1.08
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2013, 00:24:09 am »

Forti, you try to offend me, but you cant, cuz i know how to kill monks - very few i cant beat. But i asure you, you are from the part ill take 5-0. Other barbs do not write here cuz obviosly no1 will hear them. And do not tell me what i have to learn since you wont be able to get me a kill. Next time more manners, ok?

 Iria,just tested with Error on ptr without Nerves of steel/Relentless. We are balanced duel on real realm (that one who outplay the opponent wins), and without nerves of steel its actually going similar like In real game. So maybe banning relentless/nerves of steel is enough, but i will try ofc a lot more fights and will give more feedback. Also if you want we could make some fights each other?
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DarkRaven

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Re: Inspiring presence for 1.08
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2013, 11:22:15 am »

Even if blizz goes on with the buff I'm pretty sure we can balance it, where it's needed, and that is mostly dh vs barb.

In wiz vs barb actually the Ray of Frost buff and teleport buff are pretty good.

If any wizz doesn't use Critical Mass in games vs barb, start doing it now, it is amazing. Reduced cd on mirror, frost nova and bump wave is so good. Also teleport wormhole catches any sprinting barb easy.

Shadow88 with 230k and soj already melts pretty good ehp barbs that use all defensive skills, I don't understand how a wiz like kaio, for example, with 330k dps and soj would ever have a problem with ehp barbs.

I would say that barb vs wiz in 1.08 is perfectly fine, the only think that needs to be banned is probably Wotb but that too can prove too much if wizards are getting very long chain stuns with CM. Even when barbs want to run to regen teleport wormhole with the new buff catches them so fast.

The only real problem is barb vs dh.
I would say ban nerves and relentless and if it's not enough only allow warcry with fury gain rune.

 Testing and fine tuning needs to be done at top level because the matchup can easily become one sided for DH if we nerf ehp too much.

@forti, good monks can 2 shot with 2 crit ( even 1 crit and 1 non crit) blue bells any barb if the barb doesn't dodge and he engages without IP. And also have the low aps and spirit regen to run faster than barbs with tempest rush...

Life reg buff only allows a quicker regen until next combo, but barbs are already waiting for IP 30 sec vs good monks...
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DarkRaven

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Re: Inspiring presence for 1.08
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2013, 11:58:33 am »

Also legacy nats dh is very skill intensive. I've seen mystical a lot of times saying that with close to optimal gear dh is favored. And if his average EU dh managed to kill top EU barbs I tend to believe him.

The problem is how do u make barb vs normal dh balanced without making top legacy nats players with good skills too imbalanced vs barbs?

Warcry ban was clearly a mistake which made barbs sitting fat ducks incapable of catching a good legacy dh... and actually encouraged stalemates as surviving for 30 minutes and waiting for the dh to fall asleep is the only chance.
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KNHO

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Re: Inspiring presence for 1.08
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2013, 15:02:57 pm »

Also legacy nats dh is very skill intensive. I've seen mystical a lot of times saying that with close to optimal gear dh is favored. And if his average EU dh managed to kill top EU barbs I tend to believe him.

The problem is how do u make barb vs normal dh balanced without making top legacy nats players with good skills too imbalanced vs barbs?

Warcry ban was clearly a mistake which made barbs sitting fat ducks incapable of catching a good legacy dh... and actually encouraged stalemates as surviving for 30 minutes and waiting for the dh to fall asleep is the only chance.

About Mystical once again, he can´t kill good barbs if they have warcry with no other heavy restrictions, and if they don´t let him do this due to a stupid offensive low hp, dps gameplay. If he is able to land a kill on a defensive barb...this will take like 50 mins per round. This video vs Devil, says just nothing about balance of this matchup. I hope Mystical himself will write here something about this, i guess a lot of people just don´t get what he is talking about.

I don´t see Vimer having problems in getting a legacy DH. We tested yesterday a few fights in all options, with warcry, without, and much more..
2 options were for me possible.
1. Stalemate till Vimer leaves the game
2. Try to make pressure on him, with aggressive Smokescreen, Vault gameplay..and die after a short period because i just don´t hurt him. Statts i played with: 600 physical res, 78 k hp, 410 k dps (Legacy) <--- No, zero chance.
If someone thinks about the option that i maybe just suck vs barb, add me KNHO#2853 we can figure this out.

I realy just don´t have a idea how to balance this setup right now.
Irias and Nofears ideas will hopefully work! Im allways up for tests on PTR, add me..
« Last Edit: April 23, 2013, 15:20:16 pm by KNHO »
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DarkRaven

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Re: Inspiring presence for 1.08
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2013, 15:13:43 pm »

no offense knho, but I'm talking about unbuffed dps from diabloprogress.

I see u only have 165 there with soj, maybe it's with older gear but I don't think 410 unbuffed with legacy is possible.

in the vids mystical beat devil with d3cl rules he had about 180k unbuffed, with soj

I think error and predsr have around 240k with soj but I'm sure there are others with more in eu who could probably take vimer down.

I'll add u anyway to test 

P.S. we can test with the no relentless no nerves idea that I posted, no warcry is stupid vs good legacy dh
« Last Edit: April 23, 2013, 15:34:11 pm by DarkRaven »
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