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[VimeR]

"do some test games with vimer vs a top wd using ef, like euro did... with hex banned, maybe even bats allowed, I'm sure wds have a lot of cc available to make it work."

No just barb cant to be close around wd, all his specs + high % fear EF. And now 2% regen + 7% regen spirit walk. Btw euro, you and blud too didnt have perfect gear  just good/average items from ah

[link1313]

I've been doing non stop testing vs monks the past couple days. (viri, miejueshitai, mafia, shisky, lazar, etc). This is a very tough matchup for barb.

I am still in the process of testing builds and I am getting closer to finding one that works. However it involves stacking single resists in order to be viable which may not work if monk switches from wave of light (arcane) to exploding palm (physical) for example.  I have reached 15 million+ ehp with 60k dps and still can get 2 shot by blue bell. Exploding palm / SS (physical) is much easier to deal with but it still is in monks favour if i drop single resists and switch to more elite % and more vitality (~13 million ehp) but at that point cant survive a stun/wave combo without popping ignore pain, then they come back at you with sss while ignore pain is down.

I am forced to use items like legacy mempo (80 all res, 50 arcane, 75 vitality, 11% life) and lucky craft rolls (i.e. shoulders 50+ arcane, 200+ vit, 12% life, 80 all res) in order to have a slight chance.

monk - barb ; America:
5;1
5;0
5;1
5;4 (sky is mie's friend irl , mie said he gave him 4 free wins)
5;2
5;1
5;3
5;2
5;0
5;3
5;0
5;0
5;0
5;0
5;4
3;5
5;2
2;4
1;4
0;3
0;5
0;5
0;5

16 wins monk
7 wins barb (5 were by me)

80 fight wins for monk
48 fight wins for barb

i'm an analyst irl i have put enough time into this to know, if a d3cl rule developer wants to talk more about the math on this matchup feel free to add me linkolas#1725.

i will let you guys know if i come up with a solution for monks with the current rules.



edit: just noticed threatening shout is now going to be banned too. Can't catch monks without threatening shout (intimidate)

[Forti]

U want restriction for monk?

By tapatalk 4

[DarkRaven]

what was your setup when u tested link?

I agree I do have some problems vs monk, but not because of their dps but because of their stalemate ability with tempest rush, if they play safe I can never catch them and eventually I will do a mistake.

Vs non-tempest builds it is actually a lot more fun, balanced and fast. I tested vs Tomas a while ago, his build was normal bells and sss, no tr. In first games he got me more, last time it was 5-4 for me, after that he switched to palm to counter my dodge and got me more ( i didn't try to optimize my build vs palm but it can be done).

I also tested my setup vs his blue bells, standing still he got 2 crit blue bells in about 20 shots... because I have ~40% dodge vs monks and his cc was around 50 i think. Basically the chance to get 2 crit blue bells in a row is extremely small, but if they just run around the map for 1 hour they will eventually get it because it's very hard for barbs to catch them.

in my d3cl duel vs mnich, i started 3-0 but lost 3-5. Basically at first he played less safe while i played safe, after that he started running and waiting for cds, while i got bored of playing safe and made mistakes, the same happened vs psykes with his tankier stalemate build, the duel lasted for more than 1.5 hours... which was actually the reason why I left the league... I enjoyed much more getting 0-5 vs insane than chasing a tr monk for hours around the map.

My EHP with dodge (but without block) vs melee elites  (dunno if bells and/or sss are melee or ranged) with the skills used is around 14mil, slightly more with block but block doesn't do much vs monks; a lot more if I would have used superstition (~17mil) instead of unforgiving, and tried to stalemate. dps was 58k+6%, so around 61 let's say. (vs psykes with his stalemate-ish build i went to about 90k dps still tanking pretty well if I played safe but still almost impossible to kill him when he played safe)

156k life, 940ar, 11.3k armor, 39,6% dodge, -16,94 vs melee, -30% vs elites (I have 35% on gear but it's multiplicative not additive)

my personal approach is dodge because a crit blue bell does anyway a lot more than 50% damage. Ideally you would want to be able to tank 2 crit blue bells without IP but I dunno if it's possible, maybe vimer with his more "raw" ehp gear can do it.

The biggest problem is if they crit with first bell you have to IP to survive a second, not very likely, crit and after that you risk getting sss.

As I mentioned before, my personal problem with this match-up, is tempest rush, not their damage. I use unforgiving, warcry dodge and threatening shout for fury gain, with sprint and charge to catch them, but it doesn't seem enough, maybe other barbs can share what skills they use in this match-up.

and yeah, nerfing threatening vs tempest rush monks is a joke...

[Forti]

So ban tempest rush and ip. Deal? As u said it os hard to get 2 crts in a row by blue bell. So we need run for serenity cd. U can one crit rend or hota most of the monks.

By tapatalk 4

[DarkRaven]

I would say ban tempest rush and sprint, the movement speed skills which make it such a long boring match-up, dunno if others would agree with this. Ignore pain is the only way to survive an sss from a top monk, if u ban that it will be just 1 shot fest before barb even gets the chance to do anything.

[Forti]

That sounds fine for me.

By tapatalk 4

[Baharoth]

I would say ban tempest rush and sprint, the movement speed skills which make it such a long boring match-up, dunno if others would agree with this. Ignore pain is the only way to survive an sss from a top monk, if u ban that it will be just 1 shot fest before barb even gets the chance to do anything.

Sounds like a realy good idea for me.

[link1313]

what was your setup when u tested link?

I agree I do have some problems vs monk, but not because of their dps but because of their stalemate ability with tempest rush, if they play safe I can never catch them and eventually I will do a mistake.

Vs non-tempest builds it is actually a lot more fun, balanced and fast. I tested vs Tomas a while ago, his build was normal bells and sss, no tr. In first games he got me more, last time it was 5-4 for me, after that he switched to palm to counter my dodge and got me more ( i didn't try to optimize my build vs palm but it can be done).

I also tested my setup vs his blue bells, standing still he got 2 crit blue bells in about 20 shots... because I have ~40% dodge vs monks and his cc was around 50 i think. Basically the chance to get 2 crit blue bells in a row is extremely small, but if they just run around the map for 1 hour they will eventually get it because it's very hard for barbs to catch them.

in my d3cl duel vs mnich, i started 3-0 but lost 3-5. Basically at first he played less safe while i played safe, after that he started running and waiting for cds, while i got bored of playing safe and made mistakes, the same happened vs psykes with his tankier stalemate build, the duel lasted for more than 1.5 hours... which was actually the reason why I left the league... I enjoyed much more getting 0-5 vs insane than chasing a tr monk for hours around the map.

My EHP with dodge (but without block) vs melee elites  (dunno if bells and/or sss are melee or ranged) with the skills used is around 14mil, slightly more with block but block doesn't do much vs monks; a lot more if I would have used superstition (~17mil) instead of unforgiving, and tried to stalemate. dps was 58k+6%, so around 61 let's say. (vs psykes with his stalemate-ish build i went to about 90k dps still tanking pretty well if I played safe but still almost impossible to kill him when he played safe)

156k life, 940ar, 11.3k armor, 39,6% dodge, -16,94 vs melee, -30% vs elites (I have 35% on gear but it's multiplicative not additive)

my personal approach is dodge because a crit blue bell does anyway a lot more than 50% damage. Ideally you would want to be able to tank 2 crit blue bells without IP but I dunno if it's possible, maybe vimer with his more "raw" ehp gear can do it.

The biggest problem is if they crit with first bell you have to IP to survive a second, not very likely, crit and after that you risk getting sss.

As I mentioned before, my personal problem with this match-up, is tempest rush, not their damage. I use unforgiving, warcry dodge and threatening shout for fury gain, with sprint and charge to catch them, but it doesn't seem enough, maybe other barbs can share what skills they use in this match-up.

and yeah, nerfing threatening vs tempest rush monks is a joke...

I agree DarkRaven the real issue may be tempest rush, but I don't want to jump to that conclusion yet.

Item wise i have a lot of build options vs monk. Currently i am testing setups to beat a pure tempest rush/stun/blue bell monk. I have other builds vs stun/sss/exploding palm/wave of light or dashing/stun/wave of light/sss or pure exploding palm only etc.

http://www.diabloprogress.com/hero/linkolas-1725/Link/1696813

The only way I am able to catch a tempest rushing monk is with 24% movement, charge , threatening shout, sprint marathon, and bash stun. The real problem is having enough fury generation combined with survivability in order to catch them, if you try to use unforgiving EHP is much too low.

Active Skills
Bash - Clobber
Furious Charge - Stamina
Sprint - Marathon
Threatening Shout - Intimidate
Ignore Pain - Iron Hide
Rend - Ravage

Passive Skills
Inspiring Presence
Superstition
Nerves Of Steel

This is the build I am having the most success with right now. Sometimes I will swap bash with war cry but vs monks like mafia with 65k health globes and 80k+ life its very hard to land enough rends in a row to kill them.

I have not asked for a nerf to monks I am just saying statistics say it is a difficult matchup for barbs and I will keep testing with mie later today, I will let you guys know.

[Forti]

I testen high aspd high loh setup against rebd barb. With full bt i sometimes i can tank 70k dps crit rent. The problem is with dmg... 1h loh socket 1200dps abd cd are sooo rare. And thevrest of the gear.. But ghere is so many solution v barbs. I just think monk have many many more builds then other class.

By tapatalk 4

[N0F3aR]

And how barb will chase a monk with no tempest rush? WIth same move speed , monk would kite barb. And more, you can land 1 rend, after that monk will be far away from the barb. This is not good.
And hello Forti, stop writting about barb vs monk, since you are not in top lvl. Once you reached your game will change against that class.

[Forti]

You start whining again?

By tapatalk 4

[Baharoth]

And how barb will chase a monk with no tempest rush? WIth same move speed , monk would kite barb. And more, you can land 1 rend, after that monk will be far away from the barb. This is not good.
And hello Forti, stop writting about barb vs monk, since you are not in top lvl. Once you reached your game will change against that class.

Charge, jump, Shout with slow rune, rend with slow rune.. choose one.

[DarkRaven]

@nofear. Tempest rush gives 60% ms, sprint gives 50%. barb can catch a monk easier this way while he still has enough skills to close distance, as baharoth said, like charge and leap, also bash to stun, plus threatening slow rune etc.

@link, your ehp and your dps seem kinda low.
You have around 4.5m base ehp vs melee elites with dodge but without block, I have around 6m with my base gear, around 7m with the dex gear I use vs monks, vimer has 6.3m with his current gear from dprogress and he probably can go a lot higher vs monks. These are calculated with a manual ehp calculator you can test yourself if you want.

http://rubensayshi.github.io/d3-ehp-calculator/#intro

I suggest you try reduction vs elites, the more you have the more valuable it becomes, for my gear 7% vs elites is easily worth around 120ar, or 240vit, or even more depending on skills used. Also the ehp comes a lot more from mitigation rather than pure hp which is a lot better, plus bt set has a lot more life reg on gear. I think that absolute best rare belts and ice climbers can reach similar ehp levels as bt set but more based on pure hp which in the end is worse than mitigation plus life reg on gear.

As for your dps, 55k with 1.5aps seems pretty low, your best normal attack crit hit is around 91k, I have 132k while vimer, for ex, has 145k basic crit in his dprogress gear with a lot more ehp than you have.

I think that at top level the matchup is balanced. From what I see in US league I think the monks there are a bit more geared than the barbs, that's why you got those statistics.

For me at least, the most stupid matchup is versus tempest rush. the games can be endless, much more than vs legacy dhs where, even though they have similar ms advantage they have to stop and shoot a lot more often.

[link1313]

Hey raven were you looking at my base all resists or did you miss the extra 370 base holy resist I am stacking vs mie for his blue bell build? (diabloprogress does not show this.)

I am 99% sure your math is wrong. Can you take a snapshot of diabloprogress with your gear and post the url here? I will do the math when I get home.

I have 34% reduce elites gear in the stash top bt belt/boots/storm etc. It can't compare to the ehp I currently have.

I do agree top us monks >>> eu monks though..