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[N0F3aR]

Dark Raven,
Banning sprint and tempest rush is not good idea.
Barb cant chase non tempest rush monk, 1 rend you land, and monk is 20 yards from you. And you have to hope to land crit hit.

Green, top ranked players cant give this skills balance.

[Baharoth]

@ nofear atm monks are FASTER than barbs, if ur worried about not beeing able to catch a monk that is only as fast as u are how do u intend to catch them when they are faster? As it is now as long as the monk plays save u cant win as a barb they can just run away all day long and u have absolutely no chance to kill them. If both classes are reduced to their basic runspeed u will have a much higher chance at killing them especialy with skills like charge and so on at ur disposal.

[Shadow88]

Tell me, did anyone of you check those rules on practise ?

actually there is some testing and private brawling going on apart from the ranking.
and i can tell you that the proposed barb vs wizard rules are completely crap.

the rules we had before (no wotb, rest allowed) were fine and accepted by most of the ppl here, so why do you propose to nerf barbs again ? (hence it would be interesting to know who of your friends came up with that)

in your proposal you address some issues that are fine actually and did not need a rework. so it would be nice to hear what problems you have with the current ruleset. On the other hand you would create some new severe problems with some of the rules like indicated before by other players (page1)

I mean you really wanna ban legacy nat set? so imagined you kick out legacy dh's that cannot affort a propper new set? o_O

Suggestion: I suppose you to state a proper reason for any change in rules you propose instead of just posting a new ruleset

[DarkRaven]

@nofear, if you can't catch non tr monks without Sprint, how do you catch tr monks when you use sprint if tr gives more ms advantage than sprint?

As me and baharoth said before, barbs have many ways to close distance, charge, leap, threatening shout ms rune, ancient spear maybe, stuns like bash etc.

Actually the no Sprint no tr rule I think is more detrimental to monks, I didn't expect barbs to oppose it.

@green, I don't think it's a matter of testing for a lot of the proposed rules in first post.
For example, as shadow (top wiz) said, if barb vs wiz was already ok, as results and testing showed, what is the possible reasoning of nerfing barbs further?

Why don't all the players that helped you made those rules post the feedback of testing and reasoning of rules here, or make a new thread where only rule developers and known top players are allowed to post.

[dilaVo]

@Shadow88

actually there is some testing and private brawling going on apart from the ranking.
and i can tell you that the proposed barb vs wizard rules are completely crap.

I'm not sure if you can compare ranked and private/public game. Do you always try to play at 100% in a private/public game? Does your oponent play at 100% in a private/public game?

so why do you propose to nerf barbs again ?

It's funny to see a wizard defending a barb (especially after first season of the league during which barbs were basically destroying wizards) Anyway ... the whole idea of the rules (and I'm not talking about those particular rules, but rules in general) was to encourage more wizards to join the league (at least that's how I see it). There are only 2 (yes 2! one with score 4-13) active wizards in both leagues (US and EU) atm.

the rules we had before (no wotb, rest allowed) were fine and accepted by most of the ppl here

When you say "accepted by most" what do you exactly mean? Like I said ... there are only 2 active wizards in both leagues. By "most" you mean 2?

Besides tell me pls how many wizards will join the new league when they notice that someone like MoKKaL (have you checked his gear lately?) left the previous league with total score 4:6 (wins : defeats) / vs barbs total score 1:2 (wins : defeats) and rules haven't changed since then?

Suggestion: I suppose you to state a proper reason for any change in rules you propose instead of just posting a new ruleset

+1

[N0F3aR]

Barbs vs Wizards is close fight now since WotB is banned. I mean even this fight is in favor of the wizard, maybe like 55/45 since barb need some proper gear ( high dex or cc reduction).

[DarkRaven]

Mokkal himself will tell you that the match-up is perfectly fine, not here you need to boost wizard but in other match-ups.

Mokkal was the only one to take 3 games from Vimer, other than Insane the wd. Ximae defeated Nofear (currently no2 in league) in the last game they played. Ximae said he has balanced games vs Vimer too.

I tested with mokkal, shadow and ximae a lot in 1.07, ptr and 1.08. Mokkal was the most efficient with his build, especially vs hota because of high dodge and high life regen.

It may not seem so, but the match-up is pretty skill intensive for both sides, after 1.08 i got completely destroyed by mokkal until i started playing a bit smarter and having more balanced duels. Also the using of high dodge vs RoF was something that i tested a lot even before 1.08 PTR and proved very efficient vs CM builds.

Mokkal even won 2 rounds vs Nofear in a PvP tournament with WotB allowed... I know that Nofear is probably a bit less geared as barb than Mokkal is geared as Wiz, but they are close and both have very good PvP experience.

Yes Mokkal has nice gear, maybe the best here in D3cl but there are others with better gear, but not better skills. For example I played vs Stalker, in his pvp gear i think he had 330k dps + Soj and 100k hp. Both more dps and more ehp than Mokkal yet it was pretty one sided for me. If he would have Mokkal's experience he would destroy any barb on server.

The match-up is not that easy to figure out, it took wizards a while to figure out an effective build revolving around critical mass ( i think shadow was one of the first, if not the very first to use it). Still playing against rend or hota means a different play-style and skills, also the gear choice can be very different (dodge vs hota). Not enough wizards have enough experience in this match-up and of course they can get frustrated.

If someone saw my games vs Stalker it would say, yeah wizards are so bad vs barb because a wiz with top gear lost very one sided to a high geared barb (but not absolute top)... when in fact it was just a problem of experience, skill usage, movement around the map etc.

Don't know why you would want to change the rules when the best Wizards in D3cl from last seasons will probably tell you that it is perfectly fine (Mokkal, Shadow88, Ximae)

But if you ask them they will tell you exactly what are the match-ups where they feel helpless and where a boost would be needed.

[MoKKaL]

i just left this 2nd league, because i was somehow pissed one day - and tbh ... its pretty empty lately.
thats why i left - and not because of some wizz vs barb MU rules

barb vs wizz is really balanced with just non-wotb rule (if not the most balanced MU in this whole game ^^)

edit: to tell you my horror MU's - maybe i can tell you more tomorrow after the weekly VC tournament.
yes, i got some new pieces lately - found some new strats - and want to test them today

[dilaVo]

Yes Mokkal has nice gear, maybe the best here in D3cl but there are others with better gear, but not better skills. For example I played vs Stalker, in his pvp gear i think he had 330k dps + Soj and 100k hp. Both more dps and more ehp than Mokkal yet it was pretty one sided for me. If he would have Mokkal's experience he would destroy any barb on server.

Here we go again. Do you remember what you said to me before the launch of the second league? You said that MoKKaL will destroy any barb in this league.

BTW I need to point out the way you compare gear. More HP means that this Stalker dude (I don't know who he is) has more EHP? Seriously? You really think it is that simple? How much all res / armor / elite dmg reduction / melee dmg reduction / ranged dmg reduction does Stalker have? Does he stack dex? DPS buffed / unbuffed? How much raw dmg / as? Does he have AP issues? And how about life per second or health globe/potion bonus?

i just left this 2nd league, because i was somehow pissed one day - and tbh ... its pretty empty lately.
thats why i left - and not because of some wizz vs barb MU rules

barb vs wizz is really balanced with just non-wotb rule (if not the most balanced MU in this whole game ^^)

edit: to tell you my horror MU's - maybe i can tell you more tomorrow after the weekly VC tournament.
yes, i got some new pieces lately - found some new starts - and want to test them today

It would be great to hear it, but I think you missed the point of my post.

Anyway ... the whole idea of the rules (and I'm not talking about those particular rules, but rules in general) was to encourage more wizards to join the league (at least that's how I see it). There are only 2 (yes 2! one with score 4-13) active wizards in both leagues (US and EU) atm.

[MoKKaL]

well ... tbh ... i didnt even see alot of other pvping wizzards - so if there arent any more - u cant get more into the league.

and its not just a wizzard problem - just look at the numbers in genereal.
300+ in season 1
~30 NOW in season 2

i think those numbers are pretty self-explanatory.

[dilaVo]

@MoKKaL

well ... tbh ... i didnt even see alot of other pvping wizzards - so if there arent any more - u cant get more into the league.

Did you play with every wizard in this game?

and its not just a wizzard problem - just look at the numbers in genereal.
300+ in season 1
~30 NOW in season 2

You are right. There is a significant drop in the number of players. There definitely wasn't 300+ active players in season 1, but still the number was bigger. Maybe they didn't join the current league, because they didn't like the rules? Or maybe they are waiting for 1.1? Or maybe .... ? I can only guess here.

But that's not the point ... compare the number of active wizards to the number of active barbs, monks, etc.. The same problem was during the first league.

[MoKKaL]

no i didnt play with every single wizz in the game ...

but if even season 1 there werent that many wizzards here - and now neither ... well maybe there arent that many wizzards playing pvp?

and imo u wont get more ppl playing pvp atm - i think blizzard has to get 1.1 out before more ppl like taking part in the pvp scene.

whatever - we are a bit off topic here (and i tend to do that somewhow ^^) - so ill keep me out of this again

[dilaVo]

@MoKKaL

but if even season 1 there werent that many wizzards here - and now neither ... well maybe there arent that many wizzards playing pvp?

Maybe there aren't many wizards interested in PvP or maybe there are, but they know/think they don't stand a chance and they simply wait until something will change, something like rules. We can only guess.

edit: to tell you my horror MU's - maybe i can tell you more tomorrow after the weekly VC tournament.

Any conclusions after the tournament?

[DarkRaven]

@Dilavo, your interest for PvP is quite admirable, considering especially that you admited yourself, if I remember correctly, you sold your PvP gear before 1.08

You asked me about stalker, he is the best geared wiz I have seen so far on EU, there may be others. In his pve gear he has 500+ k unbuffed dps. In his PvP gear at first he used skorn and had, if I remember correctly, 250k unbuffed plus soj. With spear and source I think he had 300k plus soj. But that's what he told me in game, I couldn't check if those were real unbuffed values

About ehp... I know everything about ehp , I can easily reach one of the best ehp scores in eu ( and real PvP, vs elites, ehp) please don't tell me I don't know how to judge ehp

1. For the 2 players I was talking about, both using high dps and soj, a lot of gear slots are fixed legendary items. If one has 60k hp and one 100k, he will have more ehp... How do you get 250k plus soj with Bt set or stacking armor and all res on all slots?

2. I could easily see how much a crit hota did to him compared to other high dps wizards, I needed at least one more crit.

3. The way that ehp is constructed is another thing. Because vs hota lower ehp but with high dodge can work better, as mokkal has. But vs rend you need raw ehp not dodge ehp.
Overall that kind of raw ehp can perform better because it's more versatile.

As barb I have the same problem vs monk. If with my extreme mitigation and 150-160k hp a crit blue bell does, for example, 110k damage, to survive 2 crit bells I would need ~220k hp with same mitigation, which is extremely hard to get without dropping a lot of dps.

However, if I get to 40% dodge ( with wc) while monk has 50% cc, I can get to a point where the chance of getting 2 crit bells in a row is extremely small... that's where tr comes because if monk runs half an hour ( literally ) and stops from time to time to hit 2 bells he will eventually get those extremely lucky 2 shots, but that's the most boring way to play and the main reason why I quit d3cl.

The same is applied to wiz vs hota, if a crit hota does, let's say in an extreme example, 60k damage, it may be better and cheaper to get 65k hp with high dodge and high regen than to get 125hp and try to tank 2  crit shots.

I was saying that if stalker, or other wiz with access to gear worth  multiple tens of billions, gets the PvP experience of mokkal, knowing how to properly gear for this matchup, the games will be pretty one sided.

I think we really talked too much about one of the most balanced, and fun, match-ups in D3 PvP. Most barbs and wizards are happy with the no-wotb being only rule.

Making rule propositions to change this is absurd, while there are plenty of imbalaced match-ups we should focus on.

[DarkRaven]

Stalker
www.d3up.com/b/278413
Dps vs elites 353k with 1.27aps
Ehp 797k without dodge 979 with dodge

Mokkal
www.d3up.com/b/739550
Dps 274k with 1.41aps
Ehp 744k without dodge, 1036k with dodge

With similar ehp stalker has 30% more dps with lower aps, which is better vs barbs from what I have seen so far. His ehp is better vs rend while worse vs hota. mokkal has more life per sec which matters a lot.