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Author Topic: DH vs Rest (TacticZ+Little guide)  (Read 7779 times)

KNHO

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DH vs Rest (TacticZ+Little guide)
« on: March 05, 2013, 15:51:09 pm »

Let´s talk about "How to" beat the other classes in the most effective way.
As a gear suggestion, i just can lean on the Nats set, coz we need the maximum of Discipline! If you can afford a good legacy Set, you´ll feel like a ninja and have a good time in duels, because the most bad thing about a DH in my eyes is the slow discipline regeneration! I´ve also tested to be tanky with a very good BT set, for me it´s not effective, low dmg and low discipline, we got to hit hard, and be on the move.

Resis: 450-500 unbuffed is enough for me, the more you got, the more dmg you loos
Dex: 2800 + get as much as possible
Vitality: I go fine with 80 k HP unbuffed, vs Wizzard/WD 95+ k HP
Critical DMG: 350 + is a must! I stack as much as possible
Critical Chance: Take as much as possible!!

1. DH vs Barb

Skills:

- Evasive fire
- Impale - Chemical Burn
- Vault - Tumble
- Smoke Screen - Lingering Fog
- Preparation - Battle Scars
- Marked for Death

Passives:

- Steady Aim
- Sharpshooter
- Tactical Advantage

The added damage of Steady Aim can be very important against high EHP targets, you need all the damage you can get!

Tactics

- You need 24 ms!
- Use vault, most of time! You´ll need every drop of your discipline. DON´t let him rend you!
- Run away when he use "Ignore pain"!
- Take 500+ Physical resistance

When "Ignore pain" is over, they have 23 cooldown on it, thats the time when you have to be very aggressive and make pressure! Be carefull, if you´re not a legacy set user! 1 crit rend will force your preparation, the second one will kill you.

Another possible option by Iria

I have had a recent success using Impale - Impact vs Barbs. I apply Marked for Death - Mortal Enemy and equip Impale cost -9 equipment (if you can get more -cost go for it). Next, I fire a few Impales at the Barb when they approach, if I stun and hit them a few times, they will usually apply Ignore Pain. At this point I stop, and retreat while I regenerate my hatred. Once I am back to full hatred I engage the Barb in a spot not excessively close to a corner (so that if they move a little I can still hit them). I unload my entire Hatred pool with Impacts and I will usually kill them! For this setup, I sometimes switch out Sharpshooter for Archery. Of course the Barb can use Juggernaut passive against this build, but the Barbs I've faced didn't want to give up Unforgiving or Relentless for it, and NO Barb will EVER give up Inspiring Presence.

A vs Barb guide for legacy DH´s by "Predsr"!

Just a few tips vs barbs as they seem to be the hardest class it seems, the skills noted below i dont always use 100%, all depends on the barbs gear/skills.This is only from a Legacy set POV.
This is not realy a what spec/skills to use, but more of a howto use some skills to maximum effect, since theres no 'one' pro build vs barbs.

Hungering Arrow>Spray of Teeth
Successful Critical Hits cause a burst of bone to explode from the target, dealing 50% weapon damage to enemies in that area. <<This 50% aoe dmg hits the first target also, so IF you crit, another 50% crit will hit(basicly 172.5% weapon CRIT dmg) Ive yet to test Evasive fire vs this skill, mostly because i feel ill lose the 'perks' that it gives, such as hitting them around the corner, but mostly because of the dmg is much higher when you crit, but also the same arrow has a chance to crit again if it peirces
This coupled with a quiver with HA dmg + SoJ with HA dmg can pack quiet a punch (I suggest a cold SoJ as its needed for the 'chase and kill' phase)

Brooding
I use this vs barbs to pretty much negate thier rend dmg, this is one of the skills i cant play without vs barb, but to make to work effectivly you primarily need HP ~90k+ (res/armour etc will make this even stronger), so for example, if you have 100k hp, you will regen 1k hp per second, this makes non crit rend almost feel like it never hit

Impale>Chemical burn
The one big mistake i see used with this skill is people overwriting the crit DoT dmg.  When you crit with your initial impale hit(you will see yellow numbers on impact), this will also apply a CRIT DoT, which almost does the same amount of damage as your initial hit, what i seen people do, and myself for that matter, is spam impale when its not needed (you can save that for later which ill explain later)
If you spam a second impale and its not a crit, it will overwrite the crit dot with a non crit dot, so you lose ALOT lose dps <this is hard to do if your not used to it but it becomes second nature after you can spot the dot dmg numbers
The best time to spam impale is when your going for the kill, this is usualy 1 sec AFTER their ignore pain skill has expired, what i genraly tend to do (IF im using sharpshooter - explained below) is when they pop ignore pain, just kite, and count 6 seconds in your head, soon as its over, its the GO FOR THE KILL phase, you should be close to 100% crit again, so try spam 2 impales and make them hit as they both impale shots will be 100% crits, also being the most dps.
Another tip is when chasing, the barb will probably weave in and out of walls, try use impale 0.5 sec before they dissapear out of line of sight, this way the dot will still be ticking when they are behind the walls
This is also the only phase where you can try to spam impale and hopefuly get those string of crits

Sharpshooter - passive
This bonus is reset 1 seconds after you successfully critically hit
reset 1 second after you crit is the key here, this means that providing you got more than 1 APS, your first two impales will be 100% crits(or any 2 skills for that matter), so always try to make sure you spam two shots of impale, this will add up to 2 crits + dot crit (265%+265%+220% dot crit - the first two depends if they dont dodge/block but the last 220% will always apply)

Vault
This is the hardest skill to master as its your main kiting tool vs barb and everyone thinks its easy to use but its the skill that sets the good from the bad. after ptr i dueled barbs and i just vaulted and tried not to get hit by skills till they rage quit the game. Theres another thing that most people dont know about vault, and its the exact same mechanic taken from World of Warcraft raiding.  If you played WoW remeber it was always best to 'move' out of fire rather than 'jump' away? this is because when you jump away, the game still thinks your in your original position on the map UNTILL you 'land' and same mechanics apply to vault. So basicly if a barb comes near you, and you vault, your body will still be next to the barb for 0.5 sec, even tho onscreen youve vaulted from him, and you will get hit by rend even tho you vaulted away, if you want to get out of range fast, use smokescreen as the passive tactical advantage will give you extra movement speed.

Thrill of the hunt - passive
One thing to note is that barbs can both CHARGE and LEAP to break this effect, so only use it after they have used those skills, Thrill is counted a 'root' effect, these can be broken, however skills like impale>impact is a 'stun' effect, these cant be broken

2. DH vs Monk

Snipe at long range with Impale - Grievous Wounds and Vault/Smokescreen away. Retreat when they use Serenity. Watch out for Wave of Light - Explosive Light (it is their only somewhat good move against DH) as well as Blinding Flash. Try to not use Smokescreen while immediately next to the Monk or they can use Blinding Flash to stun you and get a free hit (possibly 1-hit-ko). This is a very easy match-up. Just go full DPS, even in EHP gear, you can likely be 1-shot from a critical Wave of Light. If the Monk is really aggressive with Dashing Strike, consider Fan of Knives - Retaliate for when they don't have Serenity up!


3. DH vs Wizzard

Use Impale - Overpenetration or Cluster Arrow - Loaded for Bear to blast the pack of mimics they use. You need EHP for this match-up to survive a few thunder bolts. Use a Boar (or any targetable pet like Wolf or Spider) to help mitigate Storm Armor. Other than that, this is an easy match up with Smokescreen.


4. DH vs WD

With the curent rules,

- If the WD is good geared, and uses a bit of his brain vs DH, you can do 3 things:

1. --> Leave the fucking chapell
2. --> Don´t waste your time
3. --> Submit a 0:5

If the WD is bad geared, and a sucker overall, you can try the following stuff:

Try Bola Shot - Acid Bolas if they use pets, you can sometimes get through the pack and hit the WD. Another option is to rush in with Fan of Knives - Hail of Knives or Fan of Daggers to greatly damage the WD on rush. Bait them into using their Spirit Walk to approach, then Vault/Smokescreen at them and Fan of Knives. If you don't trigger their Spirit Vessel, then immediately fire some Impale - Chemical Burn at them from close range. Once they trigger Spirit Vessel, retreat and get ready for another burst of damage to finish them off. Use the Boar companion to help eat haunts; you also need higher EHP than normal for this match-up as well (like against the Wizard).
You can also try it with "Cluster Arrow - Loaded for Bear", instead of Fan of Knives.
The high AE damage is important here, because it isn´t eazy to hit WD´s when they´re surroundet by all the pets.


5. DH vs DH

A very annoying fight. Typically if both players have enough EHP to not get 1-shot, then the winner will be decided by who has more discipline (Legacy Natalya's set wins here by far if the user has enough EHP). Basically, it is a duel of Smokescreen, Vault, and very careful aiming and prediction. There is also an element of luck: both in predicting where the enemy DH will appear, and also in the dodge system which may negate your attacks entirely!
Also notice, you can try to snipe with impale smoked DH´s, as the dots can´t be dodged, it could burn a lot of the enemys HP.

Thanks a lot to ~ Iria, Lilith, MysticaL, Predsr ~
« Last Edit: April 19, 2013, 09:33:01 am by KNHO »
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Iria

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Re: DH vs Rest (TacticZ)
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2013, 08:04:04 am »

Here are my opinions:

1) You can try Steady Aim instead of Thrill of the Hunt (optional). I find that the bind effect is too short and some Barbarians can just leap out of it. Next, the added damage of Steady Aim is invaluable against very very high EHP targets; you need all the damage you can get!

2) DH vs Monk
Snipe at long range with Impale - Chemical Burn and Vault/Smokescreen away. Retreat when they use Serenity. Watch out for Wave of Light - Explosive Light (it is their only somewhat good move against DH) as well as Blinding Flash. Try to not use Smokescreen while immediately next to the Monk or they can use Blinding Flash to stun you and get a free hit (possibly 1-hit-ko). This is a very easy match-up. Just go full DPS, even in EHP gear, you can likely be 1-shot from a critical Wave of Light. If the Monk is really aggressive with Dashing Strike, consider Fan of Knives - Retaliate for when they don't have Serenity up!

3)DH vs Wizard
Use Impale - Overpenetration or Cluster Arrow - Loaded for Bear to blast the pack of mimics they use. You need EHP for this match-up to survive a few thunder bolts. Use a Boar (or any targetable pet like Wolf or Spider) to help mitigate Storm Armor. Other than that, this is an easy match up with Smokescreen.

4) DH vs WD
Try Bola Shot - Acid Bolas if they use pets, you can sometimes get through the pack and hit the WD. Another option is to rush in with Fan of Knives - Hail of Knives or Fan of Daggers to greatly damage the WD on rush. Bait them into using their Spirit Walk to approach, then Vault/Smokescreen at them and Fan of Knives. If you don't trigger their Spirit Vessel, then immediately fire some Impale - Chemical Burn at them from close range. Once they trigger Spirit Vessel, retreat and get ready for another burst of damage to finish them off. Use the Boar companion to help eat haunts; you also need higher EHP than normal for this match-up as well (like against the Wizard).

5) DH vs DH
A very annoying fight. Typically if both players have enough EHP to not get 1-shot, then the winner will be decided by who has more discipline (Legacy Natalya's set wins here by far if the user has enough EHP). Basically, it is a duel of Smokescreen, Vault, and very careful aiming and prediction. There is also an element of luck: both in predicting where the enemy DH will appear, and also in the dodge system which may negate your attacks entirely!
« Last Edit: March 07, 2013, 08:05:57 am by Iria »
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KNHO

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Re: DH vs Rest (TacticZ)
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2013, 10:26:42 am »

Thanks a lot Iria. I hope we can get some more good DH´s to this discussion.
Feel free guys to discuss the tactics, maybe we can figure out the realy best and effective ways to approach our goals.
Videos of this gameplays and taktics would be very good. As i know for me, it´s allways better to see something live, for better understanding. Is it possible Iria? Can you fraps vs realy good players?
« Last Edit: March 07, 2013, 14:03:11 pm by KNHO »
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kriptony-TBA

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Re: DH vs Rest (TacticZ+Little guide)
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2013, 17:08:48 pm »

How About DH vs Full tank monk?

"Full Tank Monk" is:
1h + shield
full blackthorn's set
litany
+ 50k bonus on potions from items
ecc...

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Wittster

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Re: DH vs Rest (TacticZ+Little guide)
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2013, 17:21:36 pm »

How About DH vs Full tank monk?

"Full Tank Monk" is:
1h + shield
full blackthorn's set
litany
+ 50k bonus on potions from items
ecc...

just keep distance and you can never lose, even full defensive monks die to 1-2 chemical burns
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Iria

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Re: DH vs Rest (TacticZ+Little guide)
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2013, 17:47:04 pm »

I have had a recent success using Impale - Impact vs Barbs. I apply Marked for Death - Mortal Enemy and equip Impale cost -9 equipment (if you can get more -cost go for it). Next, I fire a few Impales at the Barb when they approach, if I stun and hit them a few times, they will usually apply Ignore Pain. At this point I stop, and retreat while I regenerate my hatred. Once I am back to full hatred I engage the Barb in a spot not excessively close to a corner (so that if they move a little I can still hit them). I unload my entire Hatred pool with Impacts and I will usually kill them! For this setup, I sometimes switch out Sharpshooter for Archery. Of course the Barb can use Juggernaut passive against this build, but the Barbs I've faced didn't want to give up Unforgiving or Relentless for it, and NO Barb will EVER give up Inspiring Presence.

Against WD, a new trick (thanks to MysticaL and other DH) is to use Spike Trap - Sticky Trap against WD who like to use Zombie Dogs. This skill is even more effective if the WD uses Sacrifice to kill their own dogs as they will be in for a nasty surprise!
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KNHO

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Re: DH vs Rest (TacticZ+Little guide)
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2013, 19:51:29 pm »

How About DH vs Full tank monk?

"Full Tank Monk" is:
1h + shield
full blackthorn's set
litany
+ 50k bonus on potions from items
ecc...

just keep distance and you can never lose, even full defensive monks die to 1-2 chemical burns

Chemikal burn is out of the game in a few days. So this can get very hard. We´ll write more about it after testing.
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KNHO

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Re: DH vs Rest (TacticZ+Little guide)
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2013, 14:33:56 pm »

vs Barb

Iria, what do you think about "Bat companion", instead of "Mark of death".
And "Evasive Fire" instead of "HA"? I had the feeling testing it yesterday, the faster you regenerate hate for impales, the more pressure you do, coz the barb has less time to regenerate. It´s like you said, you shoot him into "Ignore Pain", then run away for a few sec´s, fill up hate fast. And go for it, coz you need to finish him in the next 23 sec.
"Impale - Impact" is realy VERY nice, but you need a shitload of dmg (propably New nats) and luck with stuns to finisch them off, with legacy it´s a bit harder.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2013, 16:15:23 pm by KNHO »
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Iria

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Re: DH vs Rest (TacticZ+Little guide)
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2013, 18:17:37 pm »

Bat companion vs Marked for Death: against Barbarians, Marked for Death increases my damage output by about 12% and is very easy to apply; I can even apply it through walls! Now for Impale - Impact, the way this works is with high cost reduction and Marked for Death effectively returns another 3 hatred per shot, whereas the bat only returns 3 hatred per second. In short bursts of damage by emptying my hatred pool, I need the hatred returned faster so Marked for Death is more effective. And I do have a "shitload" of damage when I use Sharpshooter + Steady Aim (~550k DPS another +30% from SoJ).

Lastly, regarding Hungering Arrow vs Evasive Fire: both are solid options against Barbarians and have different advantages. However, Hungering Arrow has one particular advantage that sets is above; it can shoot around corners. This allows the DH to poke the hiding Barbarian without moving into a Rend or spending discipline to vault to another angle. Two popular hiding places where Barbs like to hide are around the small building in the graveyard and around the statue at the very top of the map. I can force a Barb to move with hungering arrow by shooting on either side of those structures (alternating if they move back and forth) without approaching.
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predsr

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Re: DH vs Rest (TacticZ+Little guide)
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2013, 02:01:02 am »

Just a few tips vs barbs as they seem to be the hardest class it seems, the skills noted below i dont always use 100%, all depends on the barbs gear/skills
This is only from a Legacy set POV
This is not realy a what spec/skills to use, but more of a howto use some skills to maximum effect, since theres no 'one' pro build vs barbs

Hungering Arrow>Spray of Teeth
Successful Critical Hits cause a burst of bone to explode from the target, dealing 50% weapon damage to enemies in that area. <<This 50% aoe dmg hits the first target also, so IF you crit, another 50% crit will hit(basicly 172.5% weapon CRIT dmg)
Ive yet to test Evasive fire vs this skill, mostly because i feel ill lose the 'perks' that it gives, such as hitting them around the corner, but mostly because of the dmg is much higher when you crit, but also the same arrow has a chance to crit again if it peirces
This coupled with a quiver with HA dmg + SoJ with HA dmg can pack quiet a punch (I suggest a cold SoJ as its needed for the 'chase and kill' phase)

Brooding
I use this vs barbs to pretty much negate thier rend dmg, this is one of the skills i cant play without vs barb, but to make to work effectivly you primarily need HP ~90k+ (res/armour etc will make this even stronger), so for example, if you have 100k hp, you will regen 1k hp per second, this makes non crit rend almost feel like it never hit

Impale>Chemical burn
The one big mistake i see used with this skill is people overwriting the crit DoT dmg.  When you crit with your initial impale hit(you will see yellow numbers on impact), this will also apply a CRIT DoT, which almost does the same amount of damage as your initial hit, what i seen people do, and myself for that matter, is spam impale when its not needed (you can save that for later which ill explain later)
If you spam a second impale and its not a crit, it will overwrite the crit dot with a non crit dot, so you lose ALOT lose dps <this is hard to do if your not used to it but it becomes second nature after you can spot the dot dmg numbers
The best time to spam impale is when your going for the kill, this is usualy 1 sec AFTER their ignore pain skill has expired, what i genraly tend to do (IF im using sharpshooter - explained below) is when they pop ignore pain, just kite, and count 6 seconds in your head, soon as its over, its the GO FOR THE KILL phase, you should be close to 100% crit again, so try spam 2 impales and make them hit as they both impale shots will be 100% crits, also being the most dps.
Another tip is when chasing, the barb will probably weave in and out of walls, try use impale 0.5 sec before they dissapear out of line of sight, this way the dot will still be ticking when they are behind the walls
This is also the only phase where you can try to spam impale and hopefuly get those string of crits

Sharpshooter - passive
This bonus is reset 1 seconds after you successfully critically hit
reset 1 second after you crit is the key here, this means that providing you got more than 1 APS, your first two impales will be 100% crits(or any 2 skills for that matter), so always try to make sure you spam two shots of impale, this will add up to 2 crits + dot crit (265%+265%+220% dot crit - the first two depends if they dont dodge/block but the last 220% will always apply)

Vault
This is the hardest skill to master as its your main kiting tool vs barb and everyone thinks its easy to use but its the skill that sets the good from the bad. after ptr i dueled barbs and i just vaulted and tried not to get hit by skills till they rage quit the game :)
Theres another thing that most people dont know about vault, and its the exact same mechanic taken from World of Warcraft raiding.  If you played WoW remeber it was always best to 'move' out of fire rather than 'jump' away? this is because when you jump away, the game still thinks your in your original position on the map UNTILL you 'land' and same mechanics apply to vault.
So basicly if a barb comes near you, and you vault, your body will still be next to the barb for 0.5 sec, even tho onscreen youve vaulted from him, and you will get hit by rend even tho you vaulted away, if you want to get out of range fast, use smokescreen as the passive tactical advantage will give you extra movement speed.

Thrill of the hunt - passive
One thing to note is that barbs can both CHARGE and LEAP to break this effect, so only use it after they have used those skills
Thrill is counted a 'root' effect, these can be broken, however skills like impale>impact is a 'stun' effect, these cant be broken

Genral shit:

Timing skills
Its important to know the exact cooldowns of your opponents skills, ask your self the questions like, whats the cd on leap? whats the cd on charge? Also learn what the skill looks like
But what will set you apart is being able to time them. This is very alien when you first start practising it, as its hard to time in your head unless its less than 10 seconds, barbs ignore pain for example - soon as its popped, i take a quick peek as my clock, time 7 seconds in my head and then peek at my clock now and again to see when its exactly up again (basicly i add+30 sec to whatever is on the timer soon as they pop IP), i suggest using a digital clock on your desk which shows seconds. 
All above applies to all of your opponents, especially learn thier defensive CD's such as Dh>prep or Monk>near Death Experince
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KNHO

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Re: DH vs Rest (TacticZ+Little guide)
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2013, 12:13:44 pm »

Thank you very much Predsr. A very intresting post!
After reading this, i noticed a thing. I spam to much HA while kiting the Barbs, so SS is allways reseted, this isn´t very smart. Still i play like 50/50 vs Barbs like Hola, Nofear :)
Spamming HA only makes sense if they are allready low on hp without Ignore pain up. I think this will improve me now...

Edit: I don´t like Thrill of the hunt, coz you MUST land a hit to activate the root effect. Sometimes it´s very hard to set it up when barbs are marathoning around walls and pillars...1 miss, and you got 7 sec cooldown again.
For me, Steady aim is the very best choice there.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2013, 13:50:04 pm by KNHO »
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predsr

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Re: DH vs Rest (TacticZ+Little guide)
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2013, 14:20:08 pm »

Yea I only realy use thrill when using a HA quiver+soj, imapct root then let rip with 2-4 HA's, its great sometimes for chasing also i dont realy find it hard to aim with at the moment since i kind of line them up for it in the open

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KNHO

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Re: DH vs Rest (TacticZ+Little guide)
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2013, 15:10:35 pm »

imapct root then let rip with 2-4 HA's

For not overwriting CB! Noticed this one for the future also  ;D Thx!
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