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[IMP-Executioner]

its too difficult forti :/  you can only try to balance max gear vs max gear ...

or what would be your solution?  how to manage?

50%/50% win ratios between 2 players 1 has 2 billion gear and another 0,1 billion gear? same for 20 billion vs 2 billion?

You can never ever balance ultragear vs average gear until u tell everybody to use specific cheap items. Diablo is somehow paytowin.

[Forti]

I wont giv up. I just dont want play in this test league because, in my opinion, barbs and wds are still powered versus monk. I know I need better gear, more ehp / damage and ofc, I need some more practise. But some rulez here are just so ridiculous.
We need to test it, ok. I wish I can do this too, but unfortunately I'm ungeared. So there is rulez "pay to win".
I just dont like it, so I wont play in this test league. Try to understand me.. the support of my arguments is the number of monks in rules dev and in top 10/30. this is not 1/5 (five classes).

I know you got right, I'm just upset, nothink else.

[N0F3aR]

I saw here a post for more nerfing barbs (seems war cry and wotb is not enough). Posts like " ban inspiring pressence" or reduce barb's ehp are just madness. You guys rly should think about improve at 1st time your skill,build or gear. Or all of them.
And pls, STOP ASKING for NURFING BARBS, cuz this is totaly absurd. Yeah, ban ispiring pressence against Monks. OMG. The monk said that should definetly improve his gear and skill. And take a look over his opponents. If barb is both end game geared and skilled player, ofc you will not beat him with sss and 1hit from wave of light.
Also for all DH that cry non stop "Nurf barbs now even more, war cry is not enough" - go and watch Mystical's video against barb. His eu DH has medium-high gear (about 800 mil) so im sure most of you can allow that gold. He is killing with 140-150 k unbuff dps.

[Wittster]

I saw here a post for more nerfing barbs (seems war cry and wotb is not enough). Posts like " ban inspiring pressence" or reduce barb's ehp are just madness. You guys rly should think about improve at 1st time your skill,build or gear. Or all of them.
And pls, STOP ASKING for NURFING BARBS, cuz this is totaly absurd. Yeah, ban ispiring pressence against Monks. OMG. The monk said that should definetly improve his gear and skill. And take a look over his opponents. If barb is both end game geared and skilled player, ofc you will not beat him with sss and 1hit from wave of light.
Also for all DH that cry non stop "Nurf barbs now even more, war cry is not enough" - go and watch Mystical's video against barb. His eu DH has medium-high gear (about 800 mil) so im sure most of you can allow that gold. He is killing with 140-150 k unbuff dps.

You barbs are really good role-players, so angry all the time!

[ximae]

I do have one question about draw rounds: if u kill someone and then die like 3 secs later from a dot is it considered a draw round? or does it have to be simultaneous death to be considered draw round.

happened today to me and since i didnt have it clear and its just test league i let it slip and just went for th 10th round.

[predsr]

I do have one question about draw rounds: if u kill someone and then die like 3 secs later from a dot is it considered a draw round? or does it have to be simultaneous death to be considered draw round.

happened today to me and since i didnt have it clear and its just test league i let it slip and just went for th 10th round.

Counts as 1-1

[ximae]

ok, its abit retarded as dots are very op already, but i guess it would be hard to judge them if its not through video capture otherwise.

but good to know.

btw happened another time next duel, well 2 in a row but one was a true draw in my eyes as we both gibbed ourselfes simultaneously.

[Iria]

I saw here a post for more nerfing barbs (seems war cry and wotb is not enough). Posts like " ban inspiring pressence" or reduce barb's ehp are just madness. You guys rly should think about improve at 1st time your skill,build or gear. Or all of them.
And pls, STOP ASKING for NURFING BARBS, cuz this is totaly absurd. Yeah, ban ispiring pressence against Monks. OMG. The monk said that should definetly improve his gear and skill. And take a look over his opponents. If barb is both end game geared and skilled player, ofc you will not beat him with sss and 1hit from wave of light.
Also for all DH that cry non stop "Nurf barbs now even more, war cry is not enough" - go and watch Mystical's video against barb. His eu DH has medium-high gear (about 800 mil) so im sure most of you can allow that gold. He is killing with 140-150 k unbuff dps.

As a non-legacy DH, I think the War Cry ban is enough. I have enough DPS that I can beat players like Zee without War Cry. The whole "Barbs need to play without pants" comment was a joke lol.

Edit: The Barb is Zee#1210 for those that are interested.

Edit 2: OMG I just saw Zee's shield, it is 1% block and 6 armor from being PERFECT.

[mannercookie]

Hello Guys,

Didn't read through 9 pages, but thought I'll chime in on the DH vs Barb rules.

Banning War Cry at optimized pvp setups will handi-cap the barb too much as it's much easier for a DH to reach the gear level required to take advantage of the match-up while the barbarian requires significant amount of time/resources spent into crafting.

If the barbarian outgears the DH, it levels the playing field since honestly the war-cry is barely a difference of 2-3 max hits in difference of the average hits threshold to kill.

The fury issue is not that big of a problem, it's the damage.

I don't really think anyone has seen what kind of damage a fully pvp optimized DH can do to a barb.

Cheers,
MannerCookie

[Iria]

I don't really think anyone has seen what kind of damage a fully pvp optimized DH can do to a barb.

What is the kind of damage can a pvp optimized DH do? I find that I cannot kill some Barbs even with my DPS (579k with sharpshooter and steady aim, plus an additional 12% from marked for death and 30% to elites, ~843k dps to elites). How much more DPS would I need against the very best of the best Barbs? And is it realistic to have that much DPS with no EHP?

[mannercookie]

from my initial testing so far, an impale range of 22-30k with TS up on your is optimal vs barbs, anything less is just too hatred intense to burst through a barb.

so far I've reached up to 35k crits vs a 1k resist/11k armor + 4 piece bt barb running nerves.

a fully PVP optimized DH will do plenty of dps to a barb.

now the gear required for that setup I can't really discuss yet until I get all my pieces

[Iria]

Played a few official matches with Monks yesterday and I have some comments. First, I will agree both sides have chances of winning now and the match-up is more balanced in that respect. My only issue with this match-up is the game decides who wins more than the players!

For example, in a Barb vs DH fight, both players have almost guaranteed attacks: Rend will never miss when in range, and Barbarian's tend to not have crazy dodge rates. This allows players to win against each other by means of skill: for the DH, the goal is to not get hit with Rend; for the Barb, the goal is to not get caught in the open with skills on cooldown.

Now take the DH vs Monk fight: the likely reason Chemical Burn was banned was due to it's unavoidable DoT. If the Monks had an undodgable attack (other than the short-range Exploding Palm) then this wouldn't be an issue. However, now banning Chemical Burn evens the playing field in the sense that both players are relying on attacks that can be dodged.

From an expected damage point of view, Monk vs DH is rather balanced; however, the variance is HUGE. I have seen Seven Sided Strike kill me on the 2nd hit in my EHP gear, or do nothing at all (all 7 hits dodged)! And what determines the variance? The internal RNG (random number generator).

In my duels against strong Monks yesterday, this became clear. While again, I will say the duels are fair in terms of neither side dominating. The duels are rather frustrating because luck matters more than skill! I really hope someday there is an option to disable dodge for both sides of this match-up (also for DH vs DH and Monk vs Monk duels) or that Blizzard releases PVP gear with accuracy (to counteract evasion) as a modifier.

Thanks for reading my rant!

How are EU DH and Monks doing?

Edit: here is another classic example of my issue with the game. Consider Super Smash Bros. Brawl with the random tripping mechanic. Upon dashing, characters have something like a 1% chance to trip (2% for Luigi lol). While most can argue this doesn't cause balance issues since all characters have the same problem, the issue is that the game adds luck to the equation and skill starts to matter less. Now imagine Diablo 3 with 99% dodge rate and everyone's damage increased by 100000%, and no second chance abilities like Near Death Experience. Sure it would be "fair" but would it be fun?

[Forti]

So, how the test league? What about top 10 again? When it will end?

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[Iria]

So how are the rules going? My issues are now with crazy DPS Wizards (although I haven't faced any in US league, I can speculate that without Companion NOR Battle Scars, I will die a lot lol).

Here are my DH related rule suggestions:

DH vs Barb: Slightly in favor of DH now unless the Barb is in the 30B+ gear range which can match my 10B DH.

DH vs Monk: Too random and luck reliant for both sides. Match is fair but less skill based than other matches.

DH vs WD: I have had no problems but the rules didn't change much in this match up, just no Gargantuans to deal with now. Match seems mostly fair from what I have seen. And also non-legacy DH does a bit better here.

DH vs Wizard: Limited dueling data, but I can suggest either: (1) allow DH to use Companion OR Battle Scars but not both, or (2) ban Storm Armor for Wizard. No one likes a skill-less skill lol.

DH vs DH: Fair in all aspects when non-legacy duels non-legacy or legacy duels legacy. There is a problem with non-legacy vs legacy and simply telling the non-legacy DH to just buy legacy equip does not seem like a fair option. Forcing players to buy a limited quantity set to be successful in PVP is not a good way to spread to a larger fan-base and promote PVP to newer players. Some minor restrictions should be in place for the legacy DH; legacy DH with enough EHP to survive one hit from a non-legacy DH have an enormous advantage because the duel will last long enough to burn the non-legacy DH's discipline leading to a "shooting fish in a barrel" scenario. Perhaps banning Lingering Fog rune for legacy DH could be an option worth considering.

[KNHO]

DH vs Barb: Still the most skill and gear based fight for a DH. To kill good barbs a DH needs to play without any mistakes, don´t miss any impales, notice barbs cd´s (Pot, charge, ignore pain..) kite very good, get very good gear with 100+ k HP to survive 1-2 crit Rends, without loosing to much DPS. 350+ k with SS only is a MUST for a legacy DH. Very hard to achieve.
Legacy and Nonlegacy DH´s both got their pluses and minuses here. Mobility/less dmg vs Crazy Dmg and EHP

DH vs Monk: Balanced in my eyes! If someone says DH is much in favour, go and make some duels vs Sin.

DH vs WD: Nothing changed, DH´s still get DESTROYED. Me and Error fought a lot vs Euronymous. It was like 2:50 in his favour. The 2 times he died, was because of some Harakiri - Max dmg - Lucky crit gameplay by us.
1 Critical Haunt burns all my resources, the second one kills me. Then there is Fear, Spirit vessel, Spirit barrage, Dogs, Healthglobes..seems that WD is the big counterclass for a DH right now.

DH vs Wizard: Fought yesterday vs Ximae and Mokkal, had a lot of fun, coz it seems to be much more balanced now.
I am forced to stack resistances and +Healthglobe bonuses on my vs Wizzard gear since Battle scars is banned. Without that, Storm Armor would just let me eat shit

DH vs DH: Balanced in all ways. I get 1 shoted with direct Impale hits vs New Nats DH´s, no matter with 110 k hp or 70 k hp.