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[Mr.Mag]

finally worked out http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/8704690467

[Mr.Mag]

@KNHO -> "There are large communities like 3dcl.com, "

[KNHO]

@KNHO -> "There are large communities like 3dcl.com, "

You must have copyied and changed this Mr.Mag! I wrote d3cl.com! 

[Mr.Mag]

for sure =]

[Rudy]

d3 is dead, for sure

[Iria]

Blue post confirmed Inspiring Presence going back to 2%.

[Mr.Mag]

yeah

[DarkRaven]

and we thought they don't care

now how about barb vs wiz with the new RoF ?

with CM and very long chain stuns wizzards will melt barbs in seconds... not only that no ehp nerf is needed but I think wotb should be allowed or allow only one stun for wiz.

already rend is almost useless as they get to reduce cd on mirror a lot and they negate all crit rends.

[Mr.Mag]

we're going to run ptr league just after inspiring presence will be fixed

[Shadow88]

wiz vs barb has to be tested by top-tier geared players!
the rof dmg buff is nice for wizards, but i do not think its a gameturner. (its 65% on top, compare that to wd's bats buff) Actually i think it has been needed to make the wiz more competable.

have you calculated the numbers btw? just assuming about 350k dps (including soj and cooldblooded) results in about 1 mio edps (350* 2.8rof). so i melt about 1 mio ehp / sec. not calculating reg and ignore pain or anything else and i have to have a clear perma shooting (which is not realistic). this is a long time and its not possible to burst a barb down in a single stun phase.

frost nova stuns about 2 sec and wof stuns about 1 sec, both have 12 sec cooldown. i cannot perma stun you with that, even CM reduces the cooldown of both spells not fast enough. Its very crit-luck dependant btw. What can possibly perma stun you for a short duration is a good timing of using mirrors.

mirrors have a cooldown of 15 sec btw and yet i have never managed to reset their cooldown during a single stun phase.
they dont make rend useless btw. if I get crit rended and do not have mirrors rdy im dead. simple as that. no room for any mistakes. can you say that about maybe failing ip once?
wiz has to go for insane dps to be able to even touch a barb so we have very low ehp.

it took some time for a wiz build to come up that is able to counter barbs. since then wiz was just bantha fodder for barbs. how about barbs now take some time to think of a counter again?

here my suggestions for wiz vs barb:
allow all skills but wotb. test it and see if it is balanced.

if you allow wotb the only build we have vs barbs is completly useless. and due to our low ehp we die from one single crit hit!

Best Regards

[DarkRaven]

I agree that top players must test this on ptr, probably wotb allowed is too much.

 U don't need to fully reset the cd of mirror in one stun, u just need to deny crit rends, which are half the rends, at best

3 stuns in a row are doable and can kill a barb with good ehp, with the new RoF, especially with top dps,  ~300k with soj.

I tested with mokkal on live yesterday, with tankier setup I had 204k hp, 1000all res buffed, 12k armor buffed, 1000dex for 30% dodge, -9% vs cold from ic boots, 32 block, -14 to elites, -6 to ranged ... And relentless.

I only had about 50k dps but he only had 50k life...he had no problem to burst through this even with the current RoF.

I did a little better with 4 piece Bt and only 170k hp but it was still pretty one sided for him... until I went to skorn hota and manage to 2 shot him a couple of times.

It's just an example of how metagame evolves and banning skills without A LOT of testing is not right.

With Bt set, buffed, vs elites I have around 11mil ehp with dodge, more with block but it depends on the average value of RoF ticks, against higher atk speed wizzards block should be better, but those wiz also reset with CM faster.

Assuming 300k base dps plus 30%soj (kaio has 330), dps with cold blooded should be around 400-450k

2.8 RoF is base but u get 3.6 with snow blast so around 1.5m per sec sounds pretty good to me.

Ofc in real combat there are more variables and testing has to be done.

Allowing wotb seems too much but allowing only one stun from wiz, and from barb (like current rules) is worth testing.

[Shadow88]

I know that nofear complained about Shadow88 finding a great build vs barbs, but I had no problems vs him, using warcry, so the wc ban is needed.

[...]
I only had about 50k dps but he only had 50k life...he had no problem to burst through this even with the current RoF.

I did a little better with 4 piece Bt and only 170k hp but it was still pretty one sided for him...

so you are saying the whole matchup completely changed within 4 days? i really doubt that! we can test as soon as we both are online again, but if you reconsider our last matches you have to admit that it took a really long amount of time during combat for me to take you down. and everytime i made a mistake i was dead!
if you allow all stuns for barbs, this is a very huge effect. as you know wiz can break a stun or a crit rend with mirrors, but only once. after that 15 sec cooldown. so imagine you stun me - i have to break to not get hit - you rend. this is a very simple example where any wiz would loose a massive amount of life without the ability to do anything against it.

Assuming 300k base dps plus 30%soj (kaio has 330), dps with cold blooded should be around 400-450k

thats a little high but ok. its all about how you decide to gear. everyone can go for insane dps (~500k unbuffed). but as we all know ehp typically suffers then. at the moment i have about 650k ehp vs barbs and it feels like being dead within one mistake. the setup of kaio you are proposing all the time features 400k ehp...

With Bt set, buffed, vs elites I have around 11mil ehp with dodge, more with block

so lets say without ignore pain but with reg, rng, etc... it takes about 10 seconds? and thats like super fast? and now consider ignore pain? and the fact that i never can shoot 10 seconds in a row without getting into trouble?

2.8 RoF is base but u get 3.6 with snow blast

you get 3.6 after 1.5 seconds shooting without pause. thats a huge difference. also you need different gear to sustain that beam. i have tested it and did not like it very much actually.

if we allow barbs to use a skills apart from wotb this makes the matchup favouring barbs in my opinion, but not that strong so you everyone can overcome differencies with a good play. and thats the thing which is most desirable.

Well thats a lot of theory crafting! better test it i think.

[DarkRaven]

I know shadow, I got a little butthurt that wizards are owning me now , I think I took it a little too personal
 
in the end skills used and style of play can make a matchup completely different.

I went from 9/10 vs u and mokkal to about 2/10 vs mokkal yesterday ( using same skills )... with hota was more balanced, but still that's with the current RoF.

I think that a lot has to do with players communicating new builds and provide feedback. A lot of skill bans where due to the fact that most players didn't use the best builds...  what seemed like class imbalance may have been just using wrong builds.


I remember a thread here where chucknorris said that wd vs monk ( I think ) is not imbalanced because X player found a way to kill him... but he didn't want to say what.

People developing new builds keep them to themselves and people being destroyed by new builds are afraid to explain what happened because others will do it to them

The same happened to me with some monks, like lusitano for ex, at first I had about 90% win rate, but after we talked about some gear and skill changes, he now kills me around 70% of time, and he still can do better I think.

Just using tr with blue bells and maybe also palm makes a huge difference from using normal bells, with no tr and no palm.

The advantages of barbs are ms - negated by tr, regen - negated by huge burst from blue bells and maybe palm... also I use superstition vs monks for more ehp and fury gain but against blue bells the fury gain is low and I can't spam sprint... if I use unforgiving I drop ehp and get killed a lot faster.

Many players don't yet understand how various skills can radically alter a matchup from one side to the other. PvP is still young and banning some skills before all players know all possible builds may be too early.

[DaRkE]

 

[MoKKaL]

The Hota/skorn setup against wizz was pretty funny though - and IMO a nice MU!
Any mistake from the other side can turn the match really quick, which promotes the player-skill.

And yes ... i like the idea of just banning wotb against wizz.
Maybe new builds evolve - which just can be appriciated in the long term.

Mirror MU's are fun too - Calamity ftw ^^

Imo i still have ZERO chances against top WD's and Monks.

And against DH's ... i really dont know
Long time ago i played against a DH.
So ... all the top gear/skilled DH out there - add me for tests!
--> mokkal#2362