Print

[Euronymous]

What would you suggest to prevent stalemates?

[IMP-Executioner]

same as it is just right now

if u have a draw the tank has to change 1 item to offensive and retry duel ... if still draw a secund ... and if needed 3rd and so on until someone is able to win

if they dont agree a judge is needed...

i always play like this and it works fine only not vs damn  wd there only a draw is possible or win for wd. dont know if it changes after wotb allowed again but in my opinion its still hopeless without weapon swich abuse

[DarkRaven]

I guess it's a matter of perspective.

The problem is not adding "too much" ehp but rather adding ehp while losing the ability to kill the opponent.

If a barb has XXmil ehp while still having 60k dps than he has the gear of gods and deserves to rofl stomp everybody.... but if he has XXmil ehp with less than 30k dps than he is a troll that can't kill anyone and deserves to be disqualified after doing this vs 2-3 opponents.

There should be a minimum dps requirement rather than max ehp limit.

BUT, checking dps between rounds is impossible and also dps with various aps and cc is a lot different. A barb with 90k dps with 1 aps does a lot more than one with 120k and 1.5 aps. The same I think it applies to other classes too.

For example, for barbs at least 50k dps should be a minimum, if he has less (but no less than 35) he should be forced to use battle rage... but a rule like this could never be enforced.

I would be more inclined to propose sanctions to players abusing this, but in most of cases it would be a case of "my word vs your word"

I remember I dueled mystical a while ago in EU and we couldn't kill each other...
 he said something that it's because I use a stalemate build... while I had more than enough dps to kill him ( around 60k) , I just couldn't get enough rends in because of his defensive style... while his eu dh clearly lacked top dps as he admitted lots of times.

That is just an example, but who is to blame there for stalemate? should I play skorn and try to one shot, or wotb? Would this be a less stalemate build? Or should the dh play more aggressive and not just wait until he has prep again before he engages? Hard to say.

[DarkRaven]

if I start each game with max ehp, play 15 minutes per round and just switch 1 item at a time it may last more than one hour before somebody gets a kill... also if I change an item with 90 str 90 vit to one with 110 str 70 vit?

 I'm doing a step towards a non-stalemate, but who is to judge if the steps are big enough?

[Baharoth]

How about punishing both players if there are x (3?) rounds that end with a stalemate? Trying to restrict EHP might work for barbs but not for legacy nat dhs, they can still run like for ever and force stalemates.

Imo there is no way to prevent stalemates with certanty, but if the players dont get any benefit from stalling they lose the incentive to do it. Rule could be for example" If 3 rounds end with a stalemate the duell counts as a loss for both players." That way both would be inclined to prevent this from happening by using more offensive gear. However, to make that work it would be necessary to prevent them from seeing each others gear before the duell. Otherwise i guess it will just end up with an argument and a judge call in most cases.

[VimeR]

with new rapid fire ban war cry is unnecessary, of course barb can play without, make this all res from items take relentless and play with 40-50k dps without fury for sprit and rend  but this wanna making rules ?

[IMP-Executioner]

yes vimer thx ...

as of my tests all "regular" pvp barbs maybe not vimer and devil will be melted by the new rapid fire rocket build + ballistic build because the bugged rockets do something like 500% weapon dps and no 145% + 50%.

They have auto aim and its really funny to see my 18 mio ehp tank going down in seconds.

@ Euro ... since i am the only pvp tank maybe i should give you the facts. darkraven hase some nice thoughts but doesnt know the data.

PVP-tank has some huge disadvantages - biggest problem is lag on runspeed and missing fury regen.
The huge advantage is that you have endless life and decent damage.
Diabloprogress is useless to see someones ehp. If you want to compare look at viciouscattle-rankings and you will see my 2 barbs are #1 and #7 in the world! So its not just one tank you make rules against its "the tank"

Problem in the game is that ehp same as dps is autocatalytical meens the more u stack the better it gets.
Facts:
- if u reach > than 35 mio ehp you are nearly unkillable
- with all buffes i have 18 mio ehp, + ignore pain + relentless + -30% dmg cry i have about 45 mio ehp
- only class that can break this is wd (because of blizzards recource management system others can´t)
- with semi warcry ban i have 15,5 mio  if i use overpower i have still 18 but not 100% of the time but i can time it very well

I tested some with iria who has more dps than every eu-dh alive and if you really want to hurt my "tank-style" take away my -30% cry not warcry or anything else.
The moment you do so i will have to use +30% dps cry. Thats useless because i have only 40 k dps unbuffed. And i will swich automatically to a 60 k dps unbuffed build to benefit from the 30% dps buff. All that will lead to a much more "non-stalemate" fight.

[DarkRaven]

is that ehp vs elites executioner? and what hit does it take into account for block? because i can assure u it is pretty far off that score.

i will do the math in a manual calculator with details and tell u what the actual numbers are

[DarkRaven]

in my tankier gear i'm in 6th place, but if its without vs elites i have a lot more, as i have max 35% vs elites

also my ehp is based more on reductions which makes life reg on gear a lot better and also block better.

[DarkRaven]

try this manual calculator with full details

http://rubensayshi.github.io/d3-ehp-calculator/#intro

executioner, with your tank gear you have 6.3 mil ehp vs elites with dodge but without block and red vs melee and ranged

i have 6.8mil ehp vs elites without block and red vs melee and ranged

u do have more vs ranged, i have more vs melee but i have a lot more block which with my overall better reductions makes it pretty valuable.

any calculator that uses block in the formula is not that great as the incoming hit can vary a lot, u have to use manual calculators, even doing the maths yourself to understand how all things in the ehp formula work, but i'm pretty sure i can survive longer vs dhs, but we can test if u want.

i will leave this spec on for now so that u can test in the ehp calc if u want, maybe i got some data wrong for  your char

[DarkRaven]

the fact is that gear, about 6-7 pieces I swapped from my regular gear, is pretty cheap and a lot of barbs can achieve immortality with shit dps... sure if u can also get 60k dps congrats.

but if you sacrifice fury gain, movement speed and a lot of dps that is just building for stalemates and I really think this kind of direction should be sanctioned, although I can abuse it too.

for example if I play a game vs an equal or better opponent, I win round 1 and switch to full tank. what rule is there to prevent me from winning 5-4? I really think this should be discouraged.

some barbs are enjoying it now but they forget all other classes can do it vs them too when they feel they have a gear disadvantage.

[IMP-Executioner]

My statz leading to my tanksetup are:

250 000 life
14000 armor
42,2% dodge
15% blockchance
890 resist
-11% ranged
-14% elite
-12% melee

according to my calcs i have 17,9 mio ehp vs ranged and 18,3 mio ehp vs melee lvl 60 elite players

in comparison to that a normal pvp barb like vimer or devil with fury gain and max run reach a range from 7-8 mio ehp, some pvp-dummy progamers like keowen @ us servers reach 10,5 mio ehp by still having 95 k dps unbuffed.
I dont see any chance for demon hunters to win vs these guys.

[DarkRaven]

y, I presume that is buffed with warcry dodge, nerves and tough as nails ( what I mentioned was fully unbuffed), I will run those buffed numbers for me too.

did u use block in the calc too? and if so what incoming hit?

[IMP-Executioner]

nobody cares unbuffed stats you face a buffed tank in the arena!  If you play tank and max fury regen you dont understand the tank itself and the autocatalytical functions in the game!

as tankbuild is made vs ultra dpsler like sin that did always 14 mio hits to me i dont care on any block and use 1 mio dps inc as reference

[DarkRaven]

y, with your stats buffed u have 13.623M vs elites with dodge, but without red to melee or ranged, and without block
with my stats buffed i have 13.677M vs elites with dodge, but without red to melee or ranged, and without block

basically u have slightly more vs ranged i have more vs melee but i have more block and more regen on gear.

ofc block is not that useful vs big hits and dot atks, but against dh, wiz, even against spirit barage is ok, especially with superior mitigation, when in relentless block can negate big shots almost 100%.

my point is that the gear parts i swapped are dirt cheap, with just a bit more effort i can get more... and anyone can reach similar levels, u do have more dps in your tank setup but its still pretty tankable by almost any opponent.