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[DarkRaven]

Euronymous is mostly right saying that skills and experience can make a big difference and most players ( myself included ) don't have enough experience.

For example, I got a walkover vs rudzian but he insisted to play in order to see the possible outcome. In his PvP gear he did no damage and died in 2 skorn shots, in his dps gear he did some damage and died in 2 spear shots... he was kinda bm saying that without wotb I would have no chance etc...

BUT, it was mostly because of what he did during my wotb.
   Insane just circles a rock without hitting me for 15 sec, and with my usual build I couldn't get more than 3 hotas of which max 2 were crits.
  Rudzian ran pretty much in a straight line.. he even tried to kite... with haunt. Basically he gave me full fury again and made it easy for me to catch and 2 shot him with increased crit chance hota from full fury. He doesn't have enough dps, but if insane did that it would have been a much different result.

As Euro said, the problem is lack of top players to test with... if vs all wds I know charge worked I thought that this is the way, no need to test more

Another example is tank dh using rf and camp mode vs barbs... it may work in public games but u will not be able to kill a decent barb, barbs can just go skorn wotb, run, ip if necessary and run out, u can't prevent them from regen if they fail with first wotb and eventually u will die...

I bet in all match-ups there are small things or unused skills that can probably turn the result upside down, too bad the PvP scene is small, almost nobody streams and few people communicate builds.

[predsr]

its always amusing watching what rudzian is gonna type next lol im glad the bm guy is getting a beatdown

[VenX]

Today I challanged p0is0nchita and if was fun and diffrent from how rest of the barbs play. He went for skorn and high damage, enought to one shot me almost every time with charge. It was a close game that ended 4:5 for him.  I've wanted to test for a while, duels where barbarians is not allowed to wield shield (vs DH atleast) but responses I get is that is not viable to play skorn vs dh. I like to know is this been fairly tested since 1.0.7 ptr and against both legacy and non legacy and even blackthorne dh.  I'd like alot of dh and barb response on this, but I will explain why p0is0nchita hade success without shield in my opinion

   If I where succesful kiting his wotb he would cut down the paths of the map that gave him the most overview and tryed to get a good line of sight on me when he did not have major cds avaible, turning from defensive to offensive. This lead to me not be able to pre smoke screen as succesful as I do against other barbs. I won when he did not have a position advantage and I where able to repeat 2-3 burst sequenze consecutive. This kind of battle was far more enteraining, it was quick fights with the best map controller victorious.
   Why I belive this can be balanced, simple. Resource. If the barb is offensive I need to predict when he charges and pre smoke screen, by failing is equal to death if not lucky. This will rise skillcap of both barb and dh. The DH can smoke screen every furious charge, but will then not be able to soak a rend or chase to score a kill. I noticed I only could kill him, if following statements where true.

1: Thrill of the hunt of cooldown
2: Furious Charge was not ready
3: Ignore pain, (да  venx..facepalm)

   This is just a suggestion to changes, but they should not be implemented this season. I knowI will upset your barbs now, but I noticed you all seem be outrageus when someone is able to kill you standing still in your tankiest gear. For me it's seems you say it's either  op or bugged because you where not immortal, witch you shouldn't be.
If this rule should be implemented there probably will need some tweaks, but I belive this is the road to go, and this will prevent stalemates aswell. 

[IMP-Executioner]

2 hand only works if the dh has low budged gear

if he try this vs "real" dh he is oneshot

if u want to fight the only barb really using 2 hand on high lvl try me

i will go on playing this style if i get my warcry back vs the rapid fire rocket abuse
2 hand worked that fine vs dh that the barb was nerfed because the dh had no chance against it
so the barb got 15% hp nerf that isnt any longer needed since the dh got a dunno 90% ? dps buff with rapid fire

now u need 10 mio ehp not to be oneshot by dh (high gear lvl dh) in 2 hand u never reach more than 8 mio ehp with the warcry nerf so the setup is not viable any more and all barbs are forced to use tank

if u get caught by wotb u made mistakes - no barb is using wotb vs dh because it doesnt work at all vs top 10 dh

[Forti]

One question. Top monks using massive ehp or massive damage build?

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[IMP-Executioner]

mass dps

[DarkRaven]

u had a nice fun duel but at the very top I don't think it can be done, a top dps dh would just kill skorn barbs in one stun.

even in my tankiest setup, high dps dhs melt me, the only class that can do that faster are wds using bats ( which are banned here )

rapid fire already gave dhs a very good burst, further nerfing barbs is a bit absurd, when already many dhs agree that even warcry runes nerf is a bit outdated now.

[DarkRaven]

the problem is, for whom do you balance here? do you balance for the existing d3cl players or for the potential best players in every class?

for example, if insane wasn't in the league the barb vs wd matchup would seem barb favored. the problem is that there aren't any top dhs here with enough dps to destroy any ehp barb, but they exist.

I tested vs Chen, who has a nice dh, probably not at the very top but pretty good overall, even with all skills allowed it was a balanced game, I only killed him in wotb but if he moved more he would have made it very easy for him.

I also saw good dhs in public games, that with correct skills and movement on the map would do very well vs barbs.

did u try with stun caltrops, or other stuns? because if u can have thrill and another stun in a row it can be very brutal.

[VenX]

Yes I tryed caltrops out without succes, can't score a kill without marked for death. I tested alot so tryed out shit like not using smoke screen and not vault and try to relay on evaise fire vault. The balance question is a tought choice, but in consideration with the numbers I got crunshed that dh need 400k unbuffed dps, and there only exist 135 of those in europe, by most is not able to stand a single crit rend. I can find out how many is pvp material if you like. Balance against our current players for me sounds most logical, thought most is around 300k dps I belive? But there will exist gear diffrence in the leauge aswell, and crunch numbers in a spreadsheet before each game to set diffrent rules does not seem that viable. Also I am not out to switch the power between dh and barb, if dh > barb with suggested changes, something new needs to come up with.

[Forti]

Why non monks speak here? About vs.  Wizz DH and WD?

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[VenX]

Why non monks speak here? About vs.  Wizz DH and WD?

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I don't feel I got enought experience vs monk (as dh) to comment on classbalance more then I feel dh as an advantage. I would like to hear suggestions from you and I am willing to test stuff out.

[Forti]

So, DH got dodge like monks. They are very mobility and got higher damage than monks. Yes, monk got bell and sss. But let's be honest. I need higher than my 140k dps (1.16 ias)  to kill med geared one shot and need high ehp to stand with currently rapid fire. This duel seems like forgotten by deva Rulez because there are only few monks. I think DH is now just so powerful with hp regen,  pure ehp DH are just impossible to kill.  Or maybe I am at the same level as my English is.

Sorry for spelling hehe.

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[Mr.Mag]

http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7527743437 plz bump this thread sometime

[VenX]

Forgot to post this, but for a while ago I did have some intense testing(DH) vs wizard and we both agreed rapidfire + any stun, any % healing ability, and chemical burn should be banned. Rapid fire all along needs to be banned in my opinion. We also tested to allow boar but we should need more people to test that out as it soaks alot of storm armor hits. We went quite intense with our testing trying out ban on smoke screen, preperation, rapid fire, chemical burn, brooding, turrent vs no storm armor. It worked out okay, alot of momvment from both part was neccary to survive. I'd like to hear your opinions and atleast test this out

[ximae]

ven i just posted about that in the season 3 new ruleset.... though i agree we would need more testing with more players.

I think the most balanced setup was:

ban chem burn, rapid fire,aidstation and brooding
unban: boar, battlescars

this way even if boar was soaking damage so are the wizzards immages and at least wiz can stack dodge ond not get killed by dots. Med and i were really getting one kill each in that setup, seemed pretty balanced.