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[predsr]

Whats the EHP of this monk with this amount of dodge? anyone got a battletag?

[GREEN2172]

http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/7978878101
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/lSeraphiml-1972/hero/3116643
http://postimage.org/image/lf542rcvj/
http://postimage.org/image/87cg281vb/
http://postimage.org/image/syy74t627

Without buffs from other skills 80% dodge. Dunno if he is wearing now PvP set.

[predsr]

Im pretty sure we would 1shot this guy providing hes 99% dodge ofc ^^

+ hes getting stacking dodge from skills, which i doubt they could pull off

[jinshin85]

Cap dodge at 70% for monk and take away chemical burn. I'm cool with that.

[Wittster]

Cap dodge at 70% for monk and take away chemical burn. I'm cool with that.

the monk in question stacked all kinds of buffs that only last a few seconds when they proc. There's no way this build is viable in pvp and even if someone does use it, the 100% bock only lasts like a second. He'll have at best around 70% base dodge and sacrifices a ton of much better spells to get there.

I saw some objections to banning Chemical Burn in other threads but haven't seen any proper argumentation or other ways to balance this matchup which at the moment is almost an auto-loss for monks.

Any more ideas?

[GREEN2172]

Any more ideas?

Only banning sharpshooter. Without sharpshooter we don't have 100% crit shot and 100% crit first dota (if you dodge) so monk will be able to tank a few shoots from impale with chemical burn, if he dodge non-crit dota will not take so much dmg. Other + of banning Ssharpshooter is that DH build for max cd, no cc+cd will mean nothing in this matchup. We will have less dmg and we will be unable to kill Monk in one rush. What are other +? We can shoot 1-2 impale on Smoke and with sharpshooter it was enough to force monk to use serenity (is this name of that immortal skill? Dunno in english), but without sharpshooter we cannot force you to use serenity in first rush, so we must make 2-3 rushes (or more, depends on dps) to force monk to use serenity, and after that we need another 2-3 rushes without sharpshooter to kill you when you have serenity on CD.

Pluses:
- longer fights
- more skill-based, because if DH will make 1 mistake in one of 4-6 rushes he's dead,
- not banning chemical burn will not make this fight lucky-based,
- good skilled monk have more opportunity to kill DH.

Ofc. this solution will not help any monks with 50-60k hp and 300-400 ress, but with good monks with good DPS-EHP balance it gonna be best solution.

[Euronymous]

Couple of more suggestions that are worthy to test in my opinion. They all would somehow reduce the movement advantage of DH:

- smokescreen no 1.5s rune or no runes at all
and/or
- vault no tumble rune or no runes at all
and/or
- no tactical advantage

[GREEN2172]

- smokescreen no 1.5s rune or no runes at all
and/or
- vault no tumble rune or no runes at all
and/or
- no tactical advantage

You mean without banning sharpshooter and chemical burn?
1. smokescreen no 1.5s rune or no runes at all - maybe, this will give the same like banning Sharpshooter - Monk will have more opportunity to kill DH.
2. vault no tumble rune or no runes at all - it will give nothing, DH can run fast on SS, it just consume more dyscypline, but for legacy DH it's not a problem.
3. no tactical advantage - no, no, no! This passive is core skill of DH - our class depends on 4 things: mobility, dps, smoke and dysc pool. Without tactical advantage whole DH class is broken in PvP, we cannot make fast rush, we cannot run, we cannot avoid enemy skills, we cannot do anything.

[Euronymous]

Yeah that's what I thought too, I just wanted to list all the movement options. 1.5s smokescreen is probably the only one that makes sense, vault is basically no nerf and tactical advantage is way too much.

Banning sharpshooter makes a lot of sense though, the mechanic with bleed impale is broken. Dodging impale and getting the bleed is already stupid and hopefully Blizz will do something about it in the future. Dodging impale and then getting a guaranteed crit bleed that doesn't reset sharpshooter is even worse and extremely op.
On the other hand, by banning the bleed rune you get rid of both "bugs". It needs more testing, find us/yourself some Monks and just try it

[ricebowl]

Let me know when a single DH on the ladder loses to a dodge-stacking Monk without using chemical burn.

And for those of you saying DH's will have to rely on RNG if chemical burn is banned...

...Every monk skill aside from exploding palm is dodgeable and can be broken by smokescreen.  Monks are already 100% relying on RNG to beat a DH from the very start.  Banning chemical burn evens it out, so to speak.

[Forti]

Banning sharpshooter can be hard to enforce and prove that dh useing so they can cheating..
they gonna say "it's just lucky and high cc rate".

We need to ban chemical burn for start. It's much easier to prove.

[Iria]

Banning sharpshooter can be hard to enforce and prove that dh useing so they can cheating..
they gonna say "it's just lucky and high cc rate".

We need to ban chemical burn for start. It's much easier to prove.

Easy to check skills before both players say "go", if you see the DH is using Sharpshooter, just say "hey bro, stop using the Monkpwner passive lol".

[Iria]

Played against rice now, I couldn't win w/o chem burn. It is like 30%DH-70%Monk if chem burn is banned, he has great EHP and DPS so I feel something should be banned OTHER than chem burn, maybe sharpshooter or ban something of monks in exchange for burn like blinding flash. I know this seems crude, but battles that are all RNG with favor to the Monk in terms of probability, are simply not fun. Sure I can win a few, but like I said, Monk has higher % chance to win due to RNG of dodge and stuff (his attacks 1-shot me, I have to crit 3-4 times to kill him). Another alternative is to ban Near Death Experience.

[ricebowl]

It's a difficult problem to solve at higher play when both players have ~50% dodge and play well.  The thing is, in this matchup, every skill is dodgeable aside from chemical burn so it was the logical first thing to ban.  However, DH damage really does suffer without it.  It's like a 4x overall damage boost. 

Here's another angle... perhaps we can ban tumble or the extra smokescreen duration instead?  This'll make fights much shorter but will allow monks to have an easier time to land hits while giving DHs the damage needed to kill monks.  However, it might make this matchup very unenjoyable if it's over in 2 seconds every time.

[DaRkE]

Here is a demonstration of a monk with really high mitigation and almosted maxxed out % elite and ranged reduction.

-The Monk's  armor, resist and reduced elite % damage is beyond what a gear set supports to give you the damage you need to actually kill the demonhunter.

-The demonhunter is in Full legacy set, with 72 k HP and approx 400 resi.

-Demonstratee how much the monk in the current 'tank' setup does versus dh , when the dh afk and take the 7ss head on.

-Demonstrate the aim angle impale requires, that is to be compared with how impale is aimed and how haunt is aimed( I will post WD video shortly)

It demonstates the damage of a both a hit and the burn effect there after.

The damageoutput demonhunter can perform on a monk, even with legacy set is the reason the topic chemical burn is up for discussion.

It shoud be fairly simple for the dh to hit monk a few times without getting struck by 7ss.

The gameplay for monk relies to predict were the demonhunter is going to exit smokescreen and precast you r 7ss at that position so that you are allready in animation when she leave the 0.5 second gap between ss.