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[Forti]

Lets be seriously. These rulez are made by one person who didnt even play much all class. This person think wizz is weak abd wd are bot so powerfull. Wd with all his skill (hex. Second life. Spirit walk. Fear. Auto aim high range imba damage dota's. Pets. Hp regen). Guys.. Who else got at least 50% of all these or even similar like these? Wd is good and with right geared he have to the best on pvp. Only retarted players or wd's players cant see it.

I think there are no need many rulez banns etc. All we need is fun. This is not a real life job when u have to make it perfect.

I hope there is some one who can read it and will understand my fcked up english without anythink like translate and t9. Thx

By tapatalk 4

[N0F3aR]

Euro, the main reason that me and Vimer are on top places is that we have experience - we play since the very begining of the brawling. Also Vimer is 18-0 cuz he is best in skill and gear. Yes,he defeated Mokkal without using WotB. But what if a wizard with similar gear like Vimer join the league? Or WD ? Id like to see fighting you and Vimer (or Blud vs Vimer) since you were on same gear lvl.
Yes, blizzard totaly failed with the last patch skils changes.
And and i dont complain! I just say that DH have their op rapid fire - do you saw what rapid fire is doing to barbs with auto aim rockets and 2 sec disable from passive? I can asure this is a ton of dmg for 1.5 sec.

[Euronymous]

@Vimer
#1 EU pvp-dummy WD is in this league, he bought my old gloves for 200eu and I assume that his other gear parts have a similar price tag on them. So maybe try him.

@Nofear
If a wizard or wd with similar gear and skill like Vimer joins you should lose 0-5 and Vimer should go 50/50. But why make rules on "what if"?
Btw. if you want to even out the blood ritual 1% -> 2% buff the most logical thing would be to ban the healing rune on spirit walk (14% every 13s, ~1% on average).

@forti
no rules = no fun
rules = no fun
gear differences = no fun
playing noobs = no fun

Solve it please

[Forti]

Good point. Im out.

By tapatalk 4

[IMP-Executioner]

@ euro

you really  need a bit more objective view of the situation... i think u lack on that because maybe u dont play enough this days.

it is really not all bad this days! but especially for barb the season 2 rules are worse and the season 3 prediction is just a joke. If you want nice hints how to make rules just ask the active top players.

Yes vimer is #1 but only because the lack of good players playing d3cl and usind open brawl instead because of the rules.

My rule-prediction according to my class - and i really test every damn day!

Barb vs dh:
warcry norune if dh use not rf - no rules if dh using rf
and goddamn why u want to ban legacy set? there is really no sense in this!

Barb vs monk:
no rules at all is just fine as it is still balanced @ ultra gear lvl

Barb vs wd:
always talk to vimer and why he can beat scorpion and blud and euro not for example, what mistakes some wd do in wotb phase and so on. we can kill 97% of all d3cl appearing wds but still get raped in public games vs skilled wd players.
I agree on vimers spirit walk + vessels theory

Barb vs sorc:
can´t do any predictions because there is still no active ultragearlvl sorc around to test with

[Forti]

The rule spirit vesel or spirit walk are fine vs. Monk in my opinion. I gave some example yesterday

By tapatalk 4

[DarkRaven]

actually i think scorpion is at vimer's level (gear wise), i wanna see that result.
U can't just balance for current players because new players can join during the competition, like scorpion did, if he would have enough games played he would probably be no1.
Vimer defeated insane in a very close game (I think insane told me it was 4-1 for him) because vimer just outgeared him, he is much closer to top barb gear than insane is to top wd gear.

other classes just don't have their best players here, or they didn't play enough games to reach the top.

barb vs wiz
most wizzards will agree that no wotb is the only needed rule, mokkal did take 3 games from vimer and he is not at the very top, the problem with wizzards is that they don't yet have enough experience and micro vs barbs, but there are wizzards, like stalker for example, that could destroy any barb easily if they had mokkal skills. Ximae also said he has balanced games vs vimer.

barb vs monk
nerfing barbs vs monks is weird, why? monks have the best burst in game and can 2 shot blue bell or sss any barb in game if they get lucky with crits, u want now them to 1 shot? also vs tempest rush, having threatening shout is mandatory for fury gain, is just like vs legacy dhs, without enough fury barbs could never catch a tempest rush monk.

barb vs dh
banning legacy natalya set makes no sense, it's actually the most skill dependent class and many legacy players don't have top non-legacy gear... Anyway even against non-legacy banning ravage rune is kinda lol, good dhs will be able to run and burst a good barb before he can even get in range to do 1 rend. Again, there aren't any top non-legacy dhs here, and the use of rf is probably not yet optimized vs barbs.
without rf, banning runes on wc, maybe also relentless, is more than needed, but vs rf with rockets and ballistics it makes no sense.
Wotb is used to counter a tanky static dh build, a good dh, even non-legacy, will not be caught with wotb. No mention here about camp mode being banned, and wotb is exactly used to counter that cheese, like we see in so many public games.

barb vs wd
if wd uses bats and haunt or bats and spirit barage he doesnt have the fire power to prevent a barb from running and regen until next wotb. on the other hand bats encourage that style of wotb and running for 1.45 because 2 stuns in a row means death, so i actually agree to bats banned, not because of damage but because of the fact that it encourages that boring game style from barbs.
The main difference is what wds do during barb wotb, I even killed scorpion once in wotb, he had 100k hp bats and barage, while i could never catch insane in d3cl. I tried what euro mentioned against various wds, ground stomp or threatening but still furious charge seems to be the best way, I would like to hear what vimer uses.

the main "problem" of barb gear, and why so many complain about barbs, is that getting 80-90% of the stats of vimer for example is not prohibitively expensive, but getting 80-90% of the stats of a top player in other classes is very expensive, because high dps gear is still more expensive than high ehp gear (not absolute top, but pretty close).

euro called nofear a "budget barb". For example, I am about the same gear level as devil, from what i see on dprogress, i have slightly more ehp because i have 7% vs elites on chest, so in dprogress numbers it would be something like 6.5M in full bt set (which is actually comparable to a 7.5-8M non bt set and litany, in dprogress numbers), while he has slighlty more dps, because of more cc, the critical hit being about the same.

I dont think that i spent more than 2bil on all my gear, although i have a lot of secondary pieces, maybe 3bil max. I guess i'm a budget barb too compared to other players? but would you call devil a budget barb? even though he probably spent a lot more he currently has about same stats as me, not the budget is important but how you spend it and also playing skills matter a lot. Nofear is probably more experienced than the "top" barbs that's why he still does well in less gear. For example i see katmp with tens of billions of gear, the spear alone i know for sure it was in the tens of billions range, and he still lost to players that nofear and me 5-0ed.

I'm sure the same can be applied to other pvp players, having good gear is not everything, and not a lot of players are at the top of pvp skills, that's why vimer is no1, he is best geared and probably most experienced pvp barb, no other player in d3cl is there yet.

[Euronymous]

@ euro

you really  need a bit more objective view of the situation... i think u lack on that because maybe u dont play enough this days.

it is really not all bad this days! but especially for barb the season 2 rules are worse and the season 3 prediction is just a joke. If you want nice hints how to make rules just ask the active top players.

Maybe these active top players should form a team and come up with some rules then? As you can see there are no rule devs left at d3cl. So if you guys consider yourself active top players, contact Mag. I'm sure he would be happy to have some new rule devs.

Yes vimer is #1 but only because the lack of good players playing d3cl and usind open brawl instead because of the rules.
Barb vs wd:
always talk to vimer and why he can beat scorpion and blud and euro not for example, what mistakes some wd do in wotb phase and so on. we can kill 97% of all d3cl appearing wds but still get raped in public games vs skilled wd players.
I agree on vimers spirit walk + vessels theory

Okay so you want to tell me that top WDs only play in public games (=no rules) because of current rules? What makes you think they have any interest in joining here if you make rules worse for them?

@Dark
I'm saying budget because a lot of you barbs use that argument in your favor. So if insane gets close to beating vimer with a gear disadvantage it is not allowed to happen and you want more rules so that Vimer always wins 5-0 unless a 50b+ WD with hundreds of hours of pvp experience arises? And it goes without saying, if he loses against a WD like this, clearly more rules are needed. If the WD loses, he needs more practice.
But if you guys win vs better geared players like you do all the time, gear suddenly doesn't matter? It's skill and experience, but certainly not class imbalances?

[DarkRaven]

the class imbalance of barbs is that they rely on ehp gear and ehp gear is less expensive when it's not absolute best in slot, like vimer has.

"if you guys win vs better geared players like you all the time" - define better geared? on amount of gold spent? that means nothing, the only way you can compare is how close player X is to the best player in his class. If I have 85-90% of the stats of the top player of my class it means i am better geared than another player that has 80% of the stats compared to the best of his class, does is matter i spent 2 bil and he spent 50bil? that's his problem.

That is the main argument vs barbs now, you look at nofear and see he has gear worth 10 times less than the opponents he 5-0 but his gear is probably closer % wise to that of the top geared barbs, because that's how the market is now, and he probably has more experience.

using the right skills can make a very big impact - just consider that nerves of steel can add 25-30% ehp, warcry a lot more, a 15-20% less ehp in gear quickly becomes irrelevant, the same with marauder rage, if a barb can spec marauder instead let's say charge because he is more skilled and can catch without it, basically it doesnt matter that another "top" player has 30% more dps on gear.

all classes rely on expensive dps-pve gear (on most slots) that everybody looks for on ah, barbs rely on ehp-pvp gear and only the absolute best are worth billions, because the pvp player base is much smaller. if the top barb spenders really started pvp than the prices would probably go up and my gear would be worth more, but does it really matter the gold value?

that's why the only valid rules are the ones made by the very best players in the class, not just gear wise but also skill wise.

dunno if you, euro, still have your pvp gear but if you can fight vs vimer until it's close to 50-50 or at least 40-60 than that is the point where the match-up is balanced.

each class should designate their top 2 players and do an invitational test league with 10 players where various rules and bans are tested.

[Euronymous]

No I don't have any gear left. Let me get this out about "best in slot". How does one define that?

Vimer defeated insane in a very close game (I think insane told me it was 4-1 for him) because vimer just outgeared him, he is much closer to top barb gear than insane is to top wd gear.
the main "problem" of barb gear, and why so many complain about barbs, is that getting 80-90% of the stats of vimer for example is not prohibitively expensive, but getting 80-90% of the stats of a top player in other classes is very expensive, because high dps gear is still more expensive than high ehp gear (not absolute top, but pretty close).

In my opinion top Barb gear is the hardest to get since you rely a lot more on rares and crafts. Top WDs are a lot closer to their gear ceiling than a Barb like Vimer. Vimer could gain +300 stats on his shoulders alone, 200str on his bracers, hundreds of stats and lots of crit on his amulet and weapon. If you look at top WDs and other classes: 50 stats on vile ward (little benefit even from perfect crafts), 50 stats on lacunis (can't use crafts because of movement speed), 50 stats on tal rashas amulet (little benefit even from perfect crafts), 50-100 dps on EF/Manticore (rares can't beat the CC/DPS). On budget WDs and other classes it will be 50-100 stats and 100-150 dps which is still pretty high compared to the potential of barbs.
So now it's a question of where to set the bar for "highest gear level". Is it the maximum possible rolls? The best items that exist? The best or most expensive char of a class? The best items a certain amount of gold can buy?

In my opinion it should be maximum possible rolls. This is the only thing you can count on, best existing items and chars will always change.
Like you said about the budget barbs, it's how the market is now. If it takes more effort to get best in slot Barb gear, why should that be accounted for in rules?

The real problem of the match-up still is WD CC and lack of CC breakers on Barbs. This probably can not be solved until Blizzard makes some changes to WotB. Til then: Get better gear and stop complaining 

[N0F3aR]

Dark Raven explained very well. Yes, i may spend less gold than most of the players i faced, but my gear is pvp optimizated, maybe i am in the 80-85% range ( my pvp gear is totaly different than my pve gear). Still pvp is not popular, so barb's pvp items are cheaper than high end dps items for othe classes. But ! the top barb's pvp items are closer to the prizes of the other top items - example, decent spear can easily go 10 bil, decent blackthorne pieces worth 1.5 - 2 bils, the best worth more. I myself to get upgrade now need like 5-10 bil at least.
Also i play pvp since the 1st ptr patch, so obviosly experience, personal skill and gear/skill setup helps. I have different gear build against different opponents - sometimes i need 3 k dps more than 3 k life. Sometimes 1 skills is useless,but other time is perfect in my skill build. You need to analize the opponenet and build proper skills/gear setup.
Thx.

[IMP-Executioner]

i really have to be honest, objective and fair and so i can only talk about Barb vs other classes.

i fought vs many players of different classes and i have contact to the other barbs with highend-pvp-gear and we talk about strategies.

according to that tests i made my prefered rules right here some hours ago.

- generally i have to say that the overall balance by blizzard is not that bad
- barb design is ok in my eyes only wotb 100% dps rune is not in line with all other skills in the game
- generally lifereg doesnt fit the pvp system at all and only causes problems, especially now the 2% for wd and 4% for dh are just mistakes in pvp development
- wd is by design now too strong by the combination of dps/mitigation potential so we have to find a way to bring it back in line or blizzard will do for us in future maybe by braking sheep if victim lose more than 20% of his max life or something like that - only 1effective  nerf would bring wd back in line

[Euronymous]

Like I said, if you want to get the WD regen back to the 1.07 Level, ban the healing rune on Spirit walk. It's 14% over 2s every 13s, so ~1% on average.

[dilaVo]

barb vs wiz
most wizzards will agree that no wotb is the only needed rule, mokkal did take 3 games from vimer and he is not at the very top, the problem with wizzards is that they don't yet have enough experience and micro vs barbs, but there are wizzards, like stalker for example, that could destroy any barb easily if they had mokkal skills. Ximae also said he has balanced games vs vimer.

mokkal lost (4:5, so very close duel) a fight against p0is0nchita. It seems like barb vs wiz is balanced with the current rules (1.2.6) considering the fact they are at the same gear level.

[MoKKaL]

barb vs wizz is defenitly ok for both sides with juse wotb ban.