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[Lilith]

Legacy nats vs. Barb:
DH wins no matter what

Yea... one mistake and im dead cose of low survi:)

[Blud]

I haven't understood completely the thing about pets. If both are banned then there's no way a WD can beat a equally geared DH. From my testing with Captain, banning dogs should be enough versus DH. And thats pretty much it. Banning shield, hex or horrify, spirit walk or spirit vessel and both pets it's a joke. Don't know who came with these ideas, but to stop rage you should rename the topic to "suggestions/ideas for future rules, please help us testing."

[devilek666]

Legacy nats vs. Barb:
DH wins no matter what

Yea... one mistake and im dead cose of low survi:)

1 mistake? Really? How about preparation?

All i wrote was regarding legacy DH.

Do You know guys how balancing occurs in real life? Like in production lines? there are small changes made over time. What You did is a huge class breaking change.

Euronymous get a good example, by let's say banning 12% MS in Barb vs New Nat DH, could be a good attempt..However banning inspiring presence is banning people like me who spends billions on gear with high str-vit peaces...that's just NOT FAIR...You can't force people to sell all their gear and come up with new set of items without touching other class, this is not balancing, this is nerfing...there are other ways to balance that not require that dramatic changes..

[error]

I'm happy to find some constructive approaches to solve the current balance problem.

Let's make some testings with those proposed solutions and find what suits better with the common interest of the competition. I think we have to shorten duels, too long rounds are not OK because they are not fun.
Limiting MS% may be a possible solution to avoid excessive kiting and Cat vs Mouse stuff but these are tortuous grounds because it's either a skill or gear stat. It has to be tested until we find that MS% threshold.

We all know some regear must happen because the current state of the game is not balanced. My opinion is that we should focus in limiting the less quantity of gear per class. If we don't do that people wont play because it's not fun. To accomplish this we should focus in skill limitation first and then gear or stats limitation.

Maybe we should ban 1 dh skill and 2 barb skills, or 1 barb and 1 dh, or whatever combination... But we must find something that works with the total average of matches.

The total Win/Loss average of matches between all classes has to tent very close towards 50% ratio. League class balancing rules will be wrong until this is accomplished.

[Euronymous]

Legacy nats vs. Barb:
DH wins no matter what
- unless barbs find a completely different gearset for a couple of billions that is as effective as the inspiring presence build to stand a chance
- vast majority of previously new nats DH will buy a cheap legacy nats set to get easy wins vs. barb

I think these are both kinda false, cheap legacy nats wont win vs barbs, played lots of games yesterday, both of the top barbs won most of the games, the only barb i won (approx 10:6?) wasnt even his main, and i doubt his gear is even near the tier as the top barbs i faced

It's not about how YOU play against some barbs. No offense, but from my experience against DH it is probably the class that requires the highest skill to succeed (movement, aiming, resource management and so on).
How come that on the US server there are DH that can beat almost any barb without rules? With gear comparable or even lesser than yours. Now imagine them playing vs. those barbs not using inspiring presence. Also keep in mind that most barbs in Europe look up to the barbs from the US, so it's not like barbs on US are noobs. Some of the US DH already posted in this thread how easy it will be without inspiring presence.
That's what I often see in this thread and what the rules are mostly based on. You have to look at the bigger picture, not jump to conclusions as a result of your own limited testing.
European ladder: WD>Barb>Monk>DH>>>Wiz
Top players from US state: Barb>DH>Monk>WD>>>Wiz

Both 1.07 D3. Basically we all agree that Wiz needs to be buffed*. Barbs>DH on both realms, not by a huge margin if you look at the top players. All the other match-ups seem to fluctuate a lot. It's more of rock-paper-scissors there than true class imbalances. In my opinion it's absolutely stupid to balance these right now except for some really minor tweaks.

*but, if you read my previous posts, in a more balanced way. Taking away all the defensive abilities of a class just so Wiz can kill them easier doesn't make sense.
@Blud, do you really think that fighting Wiz without Spirit Walk, Pets and Hex/Horrify result in a fair and fun duel?

@error
Movement speed: If that would really benefit the duel and make it more balanced I don't think any Barb would have a problem with getting rare bracers instead of lacunis. It's just a single piece of item (that any decent barb should already have anyway) that doesn't make or break certain builds.
I disagree that the average of matches between all classes has to tend to a 50% ratio. In a small league like this it's highly possible that a class is underrepresented with a playerbase that's just not at the top-level with their gear and skill yet. Like I said above it's really misleading to base rules on the current standings of the european league or some hours of testing between the admins.

[Lilith]

Euronymous get a good example, by let's say banning 12% MS in Barb vs New Nat DH, could be a good attempt..However banning inspiring presence is banning people like me who spends billions on gear with high str-vit peaces...that's just NOT FAIR...You can't force people to sell all their gear and come up with new set of items without touching other class, this is not balancing, this is nerfing...there are other ways to balance that not require that dramatic changes..

Maybe ban mf or gf? MS it's much less importants. IMO inspiring presence should be banned. Another way is ban for nerves of steel and/or/ relentless, ignore pain. Wanna get imba life regen and kite all the time? No problem but u must be beatable.

[Blud]

@Euronymous, I never said it's fun,  but it gives wizard a possibility of beating a top WD. This possibility atm doesn't exist. Or at least, I haven't bumped into any wizard that gets me into trouble.

But, I couldn't agree more with you, Euronymous, there's not much left to say. People are drawing conclusions from 20 minutes of testing and, imo, very biased. Nobody wants to be nerfed.

But the truth is, and I've been testing all morning, these rules are trying to balance "imbalanced characters." First, people should look at their characters and try to come up with the right gear & skills. When this is achieved, rules will be easier to make. I know tanky dhs that use 1h & shield that would be a big problem with some coherent rules like "banning dogs and spirit vessel". Not current suggestions with massive nerfs.

In addition, banning inspiring presence and making people's gear useless is a fail. You can't take such measures.

[jointit]

If there is a way to not ban inspiring presence - please bring it.

If there is a way to not break the wd class in the way euronymous suggest - please bring it.

One thing for wd vs barb is to only ban hex and wotb, and leave the rest untouched. Thoughts?

[Lilith]

If there is a way to not ban inspiring presence - please bring it.

If there is a way to not break the wd class in the way euronymous suggest - please bring it.

One thing for wd vs barb is to only ban hex and wotb, and leave the rest untouched. Thoughts?

One thing? Didn't wd must choose between spit walk or spirit vessal?

[kaio]

for DH vs WIZ I bring u some facts:

http://www.twitch.tv/mcp42

tested with Mcp and with Vilhelmi#2575

we use no boar no preparation heal and we add  SS set to 1 sec and not 1.5...

we make really decent ballanced duels and with Vilhemi (lowered geared than McP ) I made a 5-4 with last round 3k life remain...

[Lilith]

@Kaio

U mean DH vs WIZZ?:p

[jointit]

If there is a way to not ban inspiring presence - please bring it.

If there is a way to not break the wd class in the way euronymous suggest - please bring it.

One thing for wd vs barb is to only ban hex and wotb, and leave the rest untouched. Thoughts?

One thing? Didn't wd must choose between spit walk or spirit vessal?

Let me rephrase - an idea could be to have 1 rule and only 1 rule in wd vs barb = no wotb for barb, no hex for wd. Rest is go.

I want suggestions and solutions to prevent the total rebuild and break of classes. I agree that banning inspiring presance can be fucking devestaing if you built 200k hp, zero regen and suddenly cant use the passive regen skill and for a wd to have his entire build not nerfed, not balanced but broken.

So again - suggestions for solutions and I just had 1 for this setup as something to throw out there to work on.

So far its been too much defensive arguments and meaningless namecalling. Lets get passed that as quick as possible and start getting productive instead.

[predsr]

@Euronymous, who are these DH's and and which barbs are they playing? Id like to see some streams if anyones got any.  if your getting these stats directly from the US league, i dont think theres enough playerbase to get any real stats.  You cant compare Eu/US players, its irrelevant if Eu barbs look upto US barbs imo, doesnt mean they possess the same kinda skill, but theres alot of other considerations that matter such as skill/tacs/gear from both opponents

We need another PTR!

[GREEN2172]

I want suggestions and solutions to prevent the total rebuild and break of classes. I agree that banning inspiring presance can be fucking devestaing if you built 200k hp, zero regen and suddenly cant use the passive regen skill

If rules don't ban inspiring presance all new nat users must buy legacy set and only kite 3h waiting to logout of opponent. So you don't want to force barbs to stop playing hit&run with their OP hp regen but you want to force all DH to buy legacy nat set? Seems legit...

I have enough of this, everyone shoud see that regenerating 5khp per 1s with barb sprint and his defense skills is not balanced and break a lot of duels, I just bought the most cheaper legacy set that I found and I will kite 3h if some barb challenge me without banning inspiring presance, but this isn't a fight, it's a lose of time for both sides.

[jointit]

I want suggestions and solutions to prevent the total rebuild and break of classes. I agree that banning inspiring presance can be fucking devestaing if you built 200k hp, zero regen and suddenly cant use the passive regen skill

If rules don't ban inspiring presance all new nat users must buy legacy set and only kite 3h waiting to logout of opponent. So you don't want to force barbs to stop playing hit&run with their OP hp regen but you want to force all DH to buy legacy nat set? Seems legit...

I have enough of this, everyone shoud see that regenerating 5khp per 1s with barb sprint and his defense skills is not balanced and break a lot of duels, I just bought the most cheaper legacy set that I found and I will kite 3h if some barb challenge me without banning inspiring presance, but this isn't a fight, it's a lose of time for both sides.

this is exactly what Im talking about. Drop the attitude and get constructive. We all want balanced duels, but maybe banning inspiring presance isnt the way to go?