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[chucknorris#1885]

Blud considering monks over all I fully agree but once you have played a monk that has mastered dashing strike micro you will be one shotted in the time it takes haunt to travel from u to ur opponent. it is impposible to out run ds, there are no counter I have found. if zombie wall stopped ds I wouldnt be making these posts. Of all the players and builds I have faced I say no question that monk vs wd is the hardest match up for wd if the monk knows their stuff. Id even wagger that in some future season of the league haunt will be allowed and wave of light will be banned for wd vs monk lol.

[N0F3aR]

   ! Mystical : " He has no war cry, he cant kill me"
   His words in the final round against Devil.
 I think this is saying everything. And Eu Dh of Mystical has around 800 mil gear while Devil has high end gear. And still Mystical has won this bo9. Why? Cuz no War Cry. So like medium geared DH beated a top geared Barb cuz no war cry. And Mystical says that in his video. And more - he explain why barbs need war cry, something i have already told. We (Barbs)  need protection and fury regeneration as well as Dh need Discipline to survive. Also Mystical explain very well what DH should do against Barb. So i advice all rule developers and DH who thinks barb are OP to watch this video. Anyway Mistycal and players like him gonna rape any barb without problem.
   Also shout cannot replace war cry compared to protection. And Mystical explain it - smoke screen and shout is no longer active.
  And Overpower with rune : 35% ranged and mele dmg reduction for 4 sec cannot replace War Cry cuz gives no fury generation. And fury generation for barbs is like air for the humans.
  Mannercookie also think war cry should be not banned.
  I really think that Barbs vs DH is close fight (especially when DH use legacy nata) and any try to ban skills gonna disbalance the fight.
 
 Thank you for the attention. This is not blame. This is reality

[IMP-Executioner]

let the barb as it is (with warcry) and i will go on killing em all

@ nofear use both cries vs dh in all matches otherwise u can stop defensive build and try complete glass canon

if warcry is banned use overpower + the defensive cry

[N0F3aR]

As i already told, Overpower cannot replace War Cry since is giving not Fury Generation. Also go play against Mystical without war cry. I asure if he get end gear like you, result gonna be in his favor. Even now i think gonna be hard for you with your 45k life relentless zone. Just make bo9 and record video. + you will lack fury using overpower. I want to watch that fight. + what you say i already test it. But if Mystical get end game gear + legacy nata and you have no war cry i bet he will beat you.
Waiting for you duel against him. Gl

[devilek666]

I was about to post some long post explaining this but I have no energy to do that, it won't be listened anyway.

Problem is that people look at war cry as only defensive skill. Truth is, barb with unforgiven can spam war cry every 20sec to get enough fury to chase DH.

Without war cry DH can be more aggressive, and when he need's to use preparation he will back off, stop shooting and run away, camp in corners (if DH is not shooting, barb is not getting fury)..Because of that barb has no fury to chase him..In this situation it's either using TS just to get fury without DH around or we are taking more hits.

I've tried few different setup's with Myst, like 35% cc, 207khp 900 res ~10000 armor, and 130khp with 5,5k hp regen on gear with high res, high armor 50% cc and ~380%cdmg...nothing really counters..Smart DH will just stop shooting and drain Barbarian to 0 fury. Cause he can't catch defensive DH.

Now, to kill DH barb need to land ~5+ rend within 45seconds.. why 5? cause it need to be 2-3crit rends to kill DH with preparation, health globe, etc. now that is a joke with good legacy kiting DH 

I don't say I'm the best etc.. I would like to see other barbs (Vimer, IownYou, Nofear) dueling with MYSTICAL! Bear in mind he has paragon 30 and -40k dps that normal legacy DH should have.

[IMP-Executioner]

as i mentioned in the 1.2.5 rules ...

Yes dh vs barb is balanced without any rules!
But... at the moment many dh play in this leaque and so far no one of them can kill a 13 mio ehp barb until they gear up.
13 mio ehp barb is way too easy to realise and can break every 90% dh.
In some further seasons any restrictions to barb (i also dont like warcry ban because it kills my furymanagement) will be cancelled because there will be enough dh that can kill every barb without any handicap.

But as i understood the rule-developer want to give all players some chance vs all classes for season 2. And so far we have not enough sorc at all. And not enough dh that can spend billions for their needed pvp equipment.

And i also think that the dh in general need to improve their tactics vs barb. Most dont use their problems. I think mystical is on the right way on that. Maybe just needs the right gear.

[Euronymous]

I want to point out that you can't infer that classes are balanced just because there is that one Monk or that one DH that kills you. He might as well just be a vastly superior player that wins despite a huge handicap or a much smaller margin for error. Who says you are as good of a WD/Barb as your opponent is a Monk/DH?
Maybe you are just not used to be challenged by that particular class because usually even good players can't overcome the imbalances?
Or maybe your opponent just happens to be the perfect counter to your char because of gear/build/playstyle and you don't have the gear/build/playstyle to counter that yet?

That being said, it's hard to determine the imbalances and even harder to find a more balanced solution with the limited options we have.

@Barb discussion

Yes dh vs barb is balanced without any rules!
But... at the moment many dh play in this leaque and so far no one of them can kill a 13 mio ehp barb until they gear up.

I read that "DH need to gear up argument" way too often from Barbs. Do yourself a favor and compare the max possible rolls and the rarity of rolls on DH gear with Barb gear. You will find out that it's a lot easier to reach the gear ceiling as a DH than as a Barb. Weapon slot: DH: Hundreds of near perfect Manticores on all servers - they are expansive but if you want them you can easily buy them - Barbs: use mostly midrange spears with an upside of usually a few hundred stats, weapon dps and/or crit damage.
This continues on most other slots, e.g. good legacy nats items usually miss 20 dex/vit at most whereas barbs often lack 100 stats here or 50 stats, 20 res there.
Add in the fact that Barbs scale extremely well with gear (especially vit) and it's not hard to see that a gap, if it exists now, can get a lot bigger when Barbs obtain more and more near perfect items.

I don't agree with the ban of a fury generator either, but a slight EHP nerf seems reasonable to me. My proposal still is "Warcry (no rune)", so it's just a 20% res nerf which is one of the easiest defensive stats to obtain on gear.

[N0F3aR]

Executioner, if that happens, dh will have advantage over barbs. I already fight mystical and he won like 8-4( dont remember the right score rly). And we had like similar gear and i was using war cry. True, i didnt fight my best, but Mystical is hard to catch and he knows when to hit and how to move. I am asking the question - what i could do if next season i face dh like him, no matter worst,similar or better gear? What if there are 3-4 like him? Or most dh start playing like him? And i must tell that most of DH in 1st season have very good gear. At least top 50 DH had bilions gear( didnt check after 50th place). The right move here is for them to watch how Mystical plays. Also i want to see you how you play vs wizard with gear similar to yours - like example Kaio ( here i dont blame, just want to watch it) if you dotn have war cry and WotB.

[N0F3aR]

I don't agree with the ban of a fury generator either, but a slight EHP nerf seems reasonable to me. My proposal still is "Warcry (no rune)", so it's just a 20% res nerf which is one of the easiest defensive stats to obtain on gear.

Pls, watch the video of Mystical and Devil, pls. The only thing that i could accept for banning is War Cry rune 20% bonus resist. But now you will tell - WHAT?? You have rune with more 20% armor. Yes i have, but is still not the same.

[IMP-Executioner]

@ euronymous ... u understood me wrong i want barb to be nerfed in season 2 and i am a barb

@ nofear yes its damn difficult vs sorc without warcry kaio and sins sorc kill me 2-3 hit. But vimer kills em both so i lack on skill... my opinion:  i have to improve and test new tactics.

And if u dont win vs sorc and dh by using warcry u have wrong tactics, for example maybe u dont use warcry + defense cry. Or u are not good enough in playing hit and run. Last thing i´m also poor in but vimer definetely can do it very well so far.

[Euronymous]

Pls, watch the video of Mystical and Devil, pls. The only thing that i could accept for banning is War Cry rune 20% bonus resist. But now you will tell - WHAT?? You have rune with more 20% armor. Yes i have, but is still not the same.

I did, but it is not showing my proposed change. Both players already said that fury regen is very problematic without WC, but this would not be the case in a "rune only" ban.
Depending on the barbs EQ your proposal is roughly a 0%-2% EHP nerf due to diminishing returns. What's the point of this? Might as well ban no rune then.
Are you telling me that Barbs who were mostly 5-0'ing DHs before would have no chance to win anymore with a 10-15% EHP nerf?

@exe
I understand, just wanted to point out that you are wrong if you think DHs have more potential in pvp gear than Barbs.

[N0F3aR]

I want to say this :
  DH improve their skill compared to before. Let say that barbs have reached some pvp potential while dh didnt. DH maybe just didnt know what to do against EHP barb. But this is changing. I practise with a lot of dh and most of them grow in skill and right build. Now they are reaching some pvp potential. Let me give some kind of example - before (lets says 1st season) barbs has (example) 50% reached pvp potential while dh has like 20%. Same goes for wizards. I really think that wizard can grow a lot of build and skill. Now barbs maybe growing their pvp potential, but dh do it faster. So soon like be 60/60%. Duel btw those clases is rly close. Just barb reached higher pvp potential earlier than dh due to streamers and maybe other reasons. Players that before i won 5-0 like np, now take me like 2-3 kills and its going harder and harder to defeat them. And im improving in that moment. Just they have what to learn. In the begining of pvp monk had good advantage against barbs - i was loosing like hell from skorn monks. But after some time i have reached pvp potential to fight vs monks. Think about pvp potential of the heroes and that potential will grow. War cry is needed for protection, since we have to reach and chase DH. And everytime is going harder ( cuz DH now run better than before)
Thx

[Forti]

what have I to do, when barbs got a few milions ehp, full ehp geared, 150k hp etc etc. I can wear full my dps gear and skill setup, make like 250k unpaper buffed dps. and still I cant kill him cause he turn on "ignore pain". then I need wait for cd's (if I used it.. but I did cause he turned ignore pain on ;]). Their rent dont got cd.

I sugest ban ignore pain on barb vs. monk, or make ehp limit for both sides to be more balanced.

[ricebowl]

I sugest ban ignore pain on barb vs. monk, or make ehp limit for both sides to be more balanced.

Please no.  Learn to play around ignore pain like the rest of the monks and you'll fare much better.  BvM is actually a very balanced matchup overall.

[Forti]

yes, it is. but u know, I was played against barb with a few milions of ehp. and it is not a "by skill" but "by gear".
I just thought that we can do somethink with it, like ehp limit, or simple hp limit. I can run a round for even 5 mins, but what sens it makes?  it is like barb vs. dh, both fully ehp.