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[Shadow88]

Do you always try to play at 100% in a private/public game? Does your oponent play at 100% in a private/public game?

When i test in private duels - mostly yes (at least i try^^). u dont?

It's funny to see a wizard defending a barb (especially after first season of the league during which barbs were basically destroying wizards

The real funny thing is actually that this was only because of a lack of knowledge. When i joined this test league and won vs every barb that i dueled the wizards i know (basically ximae & mokkal) began to think different and now were able to kill barbs that have been "destroying" them before. (i defend barbs here, because i know a lot of them, and i somehow felt sorry for them when they were nerfed hard back then)
the rof/ cm/ stun build i invented is actually pretty strong vs barbs if you know how to use it, but yet i still see alot of wizards using magic missiles or blizzard vs barbs.....

you ask why we have such a lack of wizards in the league here. well i can tell you at least what i think might be the reason (or at least some of them)
wizards are veeery play skill dependant. the problem is, you are dead by one single mistake. this issue makes the class rather beginner unfriendly. compare that to a wd for example. i see some noob wds very often in pubs. they can just cast bats/haunt and basically kill everyone in the game. even a bad wd can cause severe trouble if you get hit.
ask yourself: how do get most ppl into pvp? right, they join a public brawl game with their pve char for fun to see how it looks like. now imagine you join a game with your super duper wizard and get ass-kicked like hell in the first game. would you
a) join another game and try to improve your skill  or
b) just think "pvp sucks", "blizzard sucks", "i wont play like this"
?
indeed i see some new wizards very often in pub games. they join, shoot some arcane orbs, blizzards and place a hydra maybe. then they get raped by the other 3 players (because: "hey, there is a wizard! - easy kill!"), and were never seen again!
so tell me how these wizards should join a league?!
i guess the most players in season 1 just wanted to test pvp.

[Forti]

There are only players who really like pvp. We just need wait for more. You never know if some good wizz can join.

By tapatalk 4

[dilaVo]

@DarkRaven

@Dilavo, your interest for PvP is quite admirable, considering especially that you admited yourself, if I remember correctly, you sold your PvP gear before 1.08

Yeah, that's right. That's why I never propose any specific changes to the current rules. I simply don't play ranked PvP anymore.

You asked me about stalker, he is the best geared wiz I have seen so far on EU, there may be others. In his pve gear he has 500+ k unbuffed dps. In his PvP gear at first he used skorn and had, if I remember correctly, 250k unbuffed plus soj. With spear and source I think he had 300k plus soj. But that's what he told me in game, I couldn't check if those were real unbuffed values

Yeah, his gear is really good, but IMO it's not well balanced (I will go back to that in a moment).

About ehp... I know everything about ehp , I can easily reach one of the best ehp scores in eu ( and real PvP, vs elites, ehp) please don't tell me I don't know how to judge ehp

That's really impressive. It seems then that you just made a mistake when you were calculating MoKKaL's EHP.

I was saying that if stalker, or other wiz with access to gear worth  multiple tens of billions, gets the PvP experience of mokkal, knowing how to properly gear for this matchup, the games will be pretty one sided.

I think we really talked too much about one of the most balanced, and fun, match-ups in D3 PvP. Most barbs and wizards are happy with the no-wotb being only rule.

So at top level gear it is one-sided or balanced? I'm confused.

Making rule propositions to change this is absurd, while there are plenty of imbalaced match-ups we should focus on.

You won against every wizard you played in the current league 5:0. This is balance for you? When I look at your scores against wizards I see that you didn't play even one single close duel.

Stalker
www.d3up.com/b/278413
Dps vs elites 353k with 1.27aps
Ehp 797k without dodge 979 with dodge

Mokkal
www.d3up.com/b/739550
Dps 274k with 1.41aps
Ehp 744k without dodge, 1036k with dodge

With similar ehp stalker has 30% more dps with lower aps, which is better vs barbs from what I have seen so far. His ehp is better vs rend while worse vs hota. mokkal has more life per sec which matters a lot.

I'm not sure what gear is MoKKaL using against barbs. My guess is 12% ms against barbs using shield and 24% ms against barbs using 2-handed weapon. We would need to ask him though. I'm also not sure what gear is Stalker using against barbs. I don't think he is playing with such low HP/sec. IMO with such gear he wouldn't stand a chance in just a bit longer fight. Anyway I will compare the data you gave me.

MoKKaL
24% ms

DPS (from d3up):
total DPS against elites: 274 710.99
as: 1.415
cc: 52%
crit dmg: 469%
raw DPS: 194 131.33

EHP:
all res: 943.7
armor: 3.814
elite dmg reduction: 7%
HP: 84 281.58
total dmg reduction against elites on arena: 92,63078714%
total EHP against elites on arena: 1 143 698,541

Dodge:
28,2%

Life regeneration:
Life per second: 1 020
effective Life per second: 13 841

Stalker
12% ms

DPS (from d3up):
total DPS against elites: 353 252.08
as: 1.27
cc: 41.5% (his cc with RoF 48,5 and that means his total and raw DPS with RoF is even higher)
crit dmg: 545%
raw DPS against elites: 278 151,24

EHP:
all res: 853.3
armor: 3,865
HP: 96,582.64
total dmg reduction against elites on arena: 91,52505096%
total EHP against elites on arena: 1 139 625,023

Dodge:
18.52%

Life regeneration:
Life per second: 297
effective Life per second: 3 504

Conclusions:
They both have similar EHP against elites (Stalker has slightly lower). MoKKaL has 12% more ms, much more higher dodge and much more higher effective life per second. Stalker has much more higher DPS (total and raw). They both have definitely top level gear, but if I was about to choose from those 2 sets I would take MoKKaL's gear. It's simply more balanced.

@Shadow88

When i test in private duels - mostly yes (at least i try^^). u dont?

Well yea, I don't, at least most of the time (I might be the only one though).

The real funny thing is actually that this was only because of a lack of knowledge. When i joined this test league and won vs every barb that i dueled the wizards i know (basically ximae & mokkal) began to think different and now were able to kill barbs that have been "destroying" them before. (i defend barbs here, because i know a lot of them, and i somehow felt sorry for them when they were nerfed hard back then)
the rof/ cm/ stun build i invented is actually pretty strong vs barbs if you know how to use it, but yet i still see alot of wizards using magic missiles or blizzard vs barbs.....

MoKKaL lost a fight (keep in mind what gear he has) against N0F3aR in VC Tournament yestarday. This indicates that there is still something wrong in this match-up. I don't know anything about that tournament though so that's why I asked for his conclusions in my last post.

you ask why we have such a lack of wizards in the league here. [...] wizards are veeery play skill dependant.

What about dh's? Aren't they skill dependant? Compare pls the number of active dh's to the number of active wizards.

so tell me how these wizards should join a league?!

Here I have a question for you. You played in a test league, but for some reason you didn't join the actual league. Why is that? Do you play in some other ranked leagues/tournaments?

[DarkRaven]

you sure love quotes

yeah mokkal's gear is more balanced because he has more experience but I'm sure that balance can be achieved with even more dps.

How exactly did I do a mistake? I just said that vs me stalker had 100k+ hp probably losing a bit of dps. Also stalker does have more ehp, even with those d3up stats, if barb uses rend, like a lot of barbs do.

the matchup is balanced at the current top level, like mokkal, shadow and ximae, but more dps is achievable and at that point it can become one sided for wiz, if they gear correctly vs barb.

I didn't play vs mokkal in D3cl, the 5-0 vs ximae was closer than it looks, after that he defeated nofear.

wotb is allowed in vc tournament, dunno why, but even with wotb it was only 3-2 for nofear in a previous tournament.

I'm not quite sure what are you trying to achieve here. You said you have no PvP gear so you basically didn't do any PvP vs barb in 1.08, you ask the opinion of top wizards, Shadow and Mokkal already told you that the match-up is fine and not vs Barb is the problem of Wiz. (I'm sure Ximae would say the same). What conclusion do you want?

this is already far too much talk about a balanced matchup, barbs are ok with the rule, wiz are ok with it, leave it be.

[dilaVo]

@DarkRaven

How exactly did I do a mistake? I just said that vs me stalker had 100k+ hp probably losing a bit of dps. Also stalker does have more ehp, even with those d3up stats, if barb uses rend, like a lot of barbs do.

I give up ... 1 143 698,541 (MoKKaL's EHP without dodge on arena against elites) > 1 139 625,023 (Stalker's EHP without dodge on arena against elites).

[MoKKaL]

first of all ill tell you why i got some new gear lately.
i tended to have less ehp/dps/dodge but a TON more lreg.
previous i was on like 2500-3000 lreg but changed that to a more dps/ehp/dodge build with just 1020 lreg atm.
and yes - i somehow miss this lreg.
but imo its not pretty fair from blizzards side - ALL chars got a MUCH better lreg than wizzards - im waiting for some lreg buff for wizzards - so my choice was to get general better non-lreg gear now and hope for a lreg buff from blizzard

my gear overall is pretty decent (still not the best! - i really want to underline this ^^) to the point for balance.
i also prefer ...
- higher mitigation over more hp (lreg + pots benefit from that alot)
- dodge over hp to some point (wanna reach 1000 dex (30% dodge) and keep my current dps/ehp) ... but all over 25% dodge is pretty decent imo
- AVG (!!!) damage over actual DPS - thats due to wizzard skills - theres one pvp skill that benefits from more IAS - Ray of Frost - but this is also just to some point, because with more IAS its costing more AP/sec and u will run out of AP while bursting the barb down)

the MU from my pov:
vs Barb:
the only primary skill thats working good for dmg is Ray of Frost - all other pvp skills deal too few damage to the tank class
in combination with some cc (frost nova + Wave of Force) thats a really good build to burst damage down "quickly".
Matches still take some time
against Rend - Mirror images HAVE to be up to protect u against a rend crit - on the other hand - a non crit rend is pretty harmless tbh
against HotA dodge is the pure winner - its so much better than actual just (e)hp
against WotB ... well ... its pretty luck based somehow
u have to deal damage AND be prepared to always get away as fast as possible.
earlier i played with 2cc's + Teleport (calamity) which worked almost too  good against non-wotb-barbs
but VC torunament allows a barb to use wotb against wizzards so i adopted.
my current build is just 1 cc (WoF) and teleport (Wormhole) to get away from an activated wotb.
the luck (or skill too) comes into play that u have to react pretty fast to an activated wotb barb.
u need MI (against rend) + teleport + even Storm Armor (scramble ... for more movement speed ... so u deal less dmg overall) to avoid the barb for 15sec.
conclusion: non wotb is okish (wizzard favored)
wotb its too much favored for the barb

vs DH:
i found a pretty neat build against "low" ehp chars (imo thats ALL other chars than barbs).
a really strong buffed blizzard.
thats Magic Weapon, Familiar + 2sec Blizzard SOJ
in d3cl there arent any healing skills allowed against wizzards which makes the match almost balanced imo (no 4% lreg (healing station + broodling) + battle scars)
but theres another problem which was introduced with 108 - Rapid Fire
Its almost the same as WD bats - the dmg is just too op

vs Monk:
almost same as DH (dex classes) - strong blizzard wins.
i even cut Mirror images for a 2nd armor spell (frost armor - jagged ice) to switch wherever i am
for example ... storm armor whenever im ranged - and if i see the monk coming towards me ill switch to jagged ice so that the monk blows himself off.
in the meantime blizzard is doing very well to keep the monk on range

vs Wizzard:
same ... my new favorite build is a strong blizzard - i will test it further but loving it atm

vs WD:
WD as a class is really OP in general - you all know that, so i dont need to comment too much here.
i didnt have a chance with my new gear and new blizzard strategy to test against some WD - so i cant even say anything here anyway - BUT i think that a high-dps blizzard is strong against WDs too

@ vc torunament yesterday:
well ... there were few ppl participating and i had a non-wotb barb as first enemy - and won ^^
After that i played aginst a DH (who won the tournament btw) and was a bit pissed after the fight
during the week i played some matches against venxosiz who is a really nice guy and pretty decent DH aswell - we had some really good and BALANCED fights - no 4%lreg + no battle scars + no rapid fire ...
well, to come back to the tournament ... against the DH i was playing i almost won the first duel,
BUT he popped aid station and used battle scars and was back to full life REALLY fast.
in addition he used rapid fire --> i was chanceless in the end.
my last duel was aginst nofear (with wotb).
tbh ... nofear is "THE" EU barb with the most willing to play and get experience atm.
we often duel for fun and "training", so we know each other pretty good - also our fights are always even ... the only change in this tournament is ... wotb!
ONE (i repeat ... one) mistake by my side (no images rdy ... teleport not rdy ...) and im dead, because i cant get away from a wotb then - a crit rend (he tends to play rend lately) while wotb is active ... and its over
nevertheless i even won the first fight - so it ended 3-1 for him

conclusion to the pvp in general atm ... i like to play with the few pvp-ppl i know - and its even fun to play VC tournament (even though i lose against good ppl ^^).
but before blizzard doesnt change a thing - i dont think that the pvp community will grow - its just too unbalanced in the end (een though its okish balanced for that that blizz didnt touch a thing!) and theres also some missing features like 2v2, spectator mode, scores, ladders, ...

hm ... got a bit long ... this post ... sry about that and i hope i didnt write too much nonsense, because i wrote what i was thinking without any much structure behind it ^^
still read it twice for spelling errors

regards
MoKK

[N0F3aR]

Actually Mokk, you make 1 mistake and i kill you, when i am using wotb. But 1 my mistake - and wotb is waste for nothing. You did very good build against WotB, so 1 single mistake and you escape alive. After that my hero is much easier to be killed, since i use soj + more dps/less ehp. So casting WotB needs preparation, very good timing and map orientation. Not so easy against decent wizzard as all say.

[Shadow88]

MoKKaL lost a fight[...]

wotb changes whole MU as indicated before

What about dh's? Aren't they skill dependant? Compare pls the number of active dh's to the number of active wizards.

didnt say dhs arent skill dependant or anything like that. but for the dh example i think they are more straight forward. a newcomer that has no pvp experience would nevertheless think of using smoke screen and also think of using impale. these skills alone give you 1) a good dmg output und 2) more important: a way to escape dmg. as i said before, new wizards dont even know what setup to use and fail right from the start. i claim that dhs are more beginner friendly than wizards.

Here I have a question for you. You played in a test league, but for some reason you didn't join the actual league. Why is that? Do you play in some other ranked leagues/tournaments?

I dont play much pvp atm, thats right. maybe more after i have done my exams at university which are taking place atm (wish me luck^^)

[MoKKaL]

@nofear - thats why i wrote its luck (and skill) dependend
if i can get u low (luck here because of crits on both sides + dodge) while teleport and mirror images are rdy i should be fine.
if i cant get u low "fast" enough and/or need to use one of those 2 skills its getting hard for me, because u know when to pop wotb - when one or both od these skills are on cd (here comes the player-skill into play)

[MoKKaL]

before noone is writing anything about rules ...
here are my GENERAL and "against Wizz" rule ideas:

Barbarian
- In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill “Wrath of the Berserker” with rune "Insanity" is not allowed.

Demon Hunter
- The Demon Hunter is not allowed to play the “bunker – style”. This style is defined by laying “Turrets” and/or “Spike Traps” and not coming out from the range of these traps.
- In duels versus the “Wizard” the Demon Hunter can chose only one of these three skills: “Preparation” with rune “Battle Scars” // “Sentry” with rune “Aid Station” // Passive skill “Brooding”.
- In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill “Rapid Fire" is not allowed.

Witch Doctor
- In duels versus the “Wizard” the Witch Doctor can chose only one of these three skills: “Corpse Spiders” with rune “Leaping Spiders” // “Haunt” // “Spirit Barrage”.
- In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill  “Firebats” is not allowed.


General Rules
- The legit pvp rules are: Fair play and good manners.
- Duels are held in 'Inferno' difficulty.
- Duels are played with best of 9.
- Each round is limited to 5 minutes - starting from the first ‘go’ from both sides.
- In case of a stalemate (at the end of 5 minutes during a round), each player unequips any 6 items of their choice and the round will be restarted.
- After a round, players may leave the game to refresh their cooldowns.
- Players are allowed to change gear and/or skills before and after each round. This has to be announced to the other player.
- Players are not allowed to change gear and/or skills during a round. A player who demonstrably (screenshots / video) violates this rule will get banned from this league!
- The small island inside the scorched chapel area is forbidden ground. Actively using this island will result in loss of rounds and/or the complete match.
- You cannot enter town or leave the game during a round. If that happens the person who enters town or leaves the game looses the round.
- We expect the duels to be active combat. Players must actively engage their opponent at least once every 30 seconds. Repeatingly avoiding the duel will result in a loss.
- Vanishing Dye is not allowed.
- Round(s) resulting in a draw count as +1 round for both sides. (i.e. 2:3 --> 3:4). If draws put you past 9 rounds you continue until there is a winner (it will count as 5:4 win).
- The winner of the duel must stay in screen from opponent once won.
- You must play your duels using the character you signed up with for the League or Tournament.

regards
MoKK

[Shadow88]

@mokkal: same goes for you: plz indicate rules you want to change from the original ( url ) with a reason for that.
for example we just agreed that wiz vs barb is fine and now you want wotb?
from the first view you strengthened most chars vs wizard compared to before. reason for that? i did not see any wiz roflstomping the league, thats why im asking

btw i have a proposal for the general part:
- Vanishing Dye is not allowed.

plz allow vanish dye... i hate the look of my mempo .

[MoKKaL]

Barbarian
OLD:
-   In duels versus the “Wizard” is not allowed to use the skill “Wrath of the Berserker”.

NEW:
- In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill “Wrath of the Berserker” with rune "Insanity" is not allowed.

Information:
Barbs have no cc breaker – allowing the wizard to have 2 cc’s (PLUS Mirror Images that can stun/freeze too) is over the top. Id even use Teleport (Calamity) then which would favour the wizard in all kind of ways.
So we could allow the wizz to just use 1 cc (to chose from WoF and Frost Nova) or allow the barb to have a 90sec CD cc breaker. Wotb is just OP because of 100% damage increase rune – all other runes are not THAT op – the barb bis just gettin a 10% crit chance buff for 15seconds (offensive wise) – thats all.
In that case the wizard is forced to have some defensive skills aswell (like no Calamity, maybe just 1 cc) and cant go pure glass cannon.
Its just an idea of which i think this MU is still balanced.


Demon Hunter
OLD:
-   The Demon Hunter is not allowed to play the “bunker – style”. This style is defined by laying “Turrets” and/or “Spike Traps” and not coming out from the range of these traps.
-   In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill “Companion” is not allowed.
-   In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill “Preparation” with rune “Battle Scars” is not allowed.
-   In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill “Sentry” with rune “Aid Station” is not allowed.
-   In duels versus the “Wizard” the passive skill “Brooding” is not allowed.

NEW:
- The Demon Hunter is not allowed to play the “bunker – style”. This style is defined by laying “Turrets” and/or “Spike Traps” and not coming out from the range of these traps.
- In duels versus the “Wizard” the Demon Hunter can chose only one of these three skills: “Preparation” with rune “Battle Scars” // “Sentry” with rune “Aid Station” // Passive skill “Brooding”.
- In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill “Rapid Fire" is not allowed.

Information:
Allowing the DH to have 1 healing spell doesnt sound op to me. Allowing the DH to use 3! Healing spells makes the DH unkillable for wizards.
Companion is a neat protection for the DH which is imo ok, since the wizard has Storm Armor.
Storm Armor 2shots like almost all DH which on the other hand _IS_ OP.
Rapid Fire in general is an OP skill which just should be banned completly.

Monk
OLD:
-   In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill “Cyclone Strike” is not allowed.
-   In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill “Dashing Strike” is not allowed.
-   In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill “Fists of Thunder" with rune “Thunderclap” is not allowed.

NEW:
-   nothing

Information:
Imo with Teleport (Wormhole) the wizards has good chances to stay away from Monks.
Storm Armor + a good Blizzard damages the Monk pretty hard.
Ice Armor (Jagged Ice) is really OP against Monks – good usage of just this armor alone and the monks kills himself ^^
On the other hand ... Monks 1- or 2-shot wizzards.
From my latest battles no bans seemed balanced to me

 Witch Doctor
OLD:
-   In duels versus the “Wizard” can use only one of the skills “Corpse Spiders” with rune “Leaping Spiders”, “Firebats”, “Haunt” and “Spirit Barrage”
-   In duels versus the “Wizard” is not allowed to use the skill “Horrify”.
-   In duels versus the “Wizard” is not allowed to use the passive skill “Blood Ritual”.

NEW:
- In duels versus the “Wizard” the Witch Doctor can chose only one of these three skills: “Corpse Spiders” with rune “Leaping Spiders” // “Haunt” // “Spirit Barrage”.
- In duels versus the “Wizard” the skill  “Firebats” is not allowed.
- new: In duels versus the “Wizard” the Witch Doctor can chose only one of these two skills: "Spirit Walk" with rune "Healing Journey" // Passive "Blood Ritual".

Information:
Horrify and Hex are at least avoidable. As wizard u shouldnt get too close anyway.
Banning fire bats (THE Op skill atm) seems fair – and restircting the WD to just use 1 of the other op skills seems ok to me aswell.
Why no Blood Ritual ban? - i added another rule here.



BTW: If anyone wants to test (escpecially monks, dh's and WD's) just add me! --> mokkal#2362

EDIT: I need to add this:

from the first view you strengthened most chars vs wizard compared to before. reason for that? i did not see any wiz roflstomping the league, thats why im asking

what i learned from VC torunaments is ...  to adopt!
there arent any balancing rules given atm which is bad for wizards at first.
But the more you play against these "OP" chars the more you learn to find a way against them.

Some Examples
- i managed to beat NoFear a couple of times with 100% damage increase Wotb.
- ive beaten Inferno (good barb) 3:0 with 100% wotb rune
- i almost won at least 1 duel against the winner of the last tournament (DH). Imo he roflstomped me in the end just because he could use too many healing spells + one OP damage skill. as i said before - i tested with VEN and we found a pretty balanced fight in the end with minor bans.
- tbh i still miss some fights against WD ... but imo i THINK that my new strategy works wonder compared to the playsytle i had before.

[ximae]

wow more movement here than in the league itself!

yeah i think wiz vs barb is fine as it is right now as i find its more decided by good/bad play than anything else as i can win/loose vs the same player with same gears just depending on how we play.... i havent played any barb i dont feel i couldnt have beat if i had played better.

  About wotb, i really dont have the experience against it to really comment, only time i played against it was vs vimer in vc and got stomped 3-0, but i really screwed up, wrong gearing in first round (didnt inspect him) then screwed all my cds as everytime he activated wotb i didnt have anything ready. need more experience vs it . What i can say is just going like insane dps also works (like 320k dps with soj buffed) as barbs really melt and u dont even need so much cc so that could even be a viable option vs wotb.

i have to agree with mokkal on most stuff, like no rules vs monk as i never felt monks needed any nerfing vs wiz its really mostly rng in that match up, and those small hitting stuns from monk can be easily countered with jagged ice.

wiz vs dh i agree with mokkals rules but i think it needs some tweaking though, as with my testings with ven and med the most balanced results were when we banned chemburn as well. So stacking dodge is usefull as if u dodge the impale u still get dotted, so it doesnt even trigger illusionist, and ur stuck with a big bleed.  yeah im another dex stacker. Same with nats helm fear proc if u get feared u eat up the whole bleed. That would allow to use boar so the dh has some sa tanking capabilities and would actually balance the match up in the lower levels too.

now wizs bane the wd, i really dont know how to balance that as i think mokkals rules are still gona fall short. The problem with wd is that in essence its very similar to wiz but it does everything better. better defensive passives, better l reg, better cc, more range, has dots and better %damage in skills, so its pretty hard to balance around that.

 Bats by them selves arent that much of an issue as u can abuse their short range, whats problematics with them is any sort of cc will leave u sold out, or if they can be paired with longer range spells ur in trouble too as u cant abuse the range then.

 The problem with haunt is that it has longer range than any wiz spell, goes through walls and can be spammed so he can just haunt u till u remove the dot and then haunt u again till it crits and its over.

 Spirit barrage should be ok expect for the fact that the wd can abuse shooting behind cover so u get hit while u cant hit him.

hex is annoying but really it isnt an issue by itself but horrify is as u cant do anything about it.

And then u have the fact that a wd can do more damage than u using a shield and being so much tankier. It really feels hopeless.

Another issue is the pets as they make storm armour useless... but then i dont mind switching armour spell to a more defensive one, but maybe banning them could also help baalncing out, but not sure anyways.

as for the rules I would add to mokkals, ban horrify. get some wd at similar gear level and test the crap out of the rules and tweak from there. As im sure with that its still going to be imbalanced.

[Forti]

in my opinion, after doing some pvp test with my friends by monk.

vs. barb - I'm unskilled, but 184k dps with 1.17ias + 27% soj +4% belt + mantra and I still lose 5-0 vs. barbs. yes, I can tr and run for ever. but it makes no sens for me. I cant stand to get one crit rend without loosing many dps. For me (and possible only for me) it is unbalanced as long as barb is cheaper the high ehp geared.

vs. wizz - nothink to ban. Very balanced and good duels.
vs. dh - I forgot many things how to play against. But this is balanced vs. new nat. If we talk vs. old nat (legacy). it this unbalanced.
vs. wd - really? spider 9 pets + firebats + hex + spirit barrage. All about. Wasting my time, I put 5-0 for most wd even without fight.

I think no tr no spirit vs. barb is not enough. There shoult be rulez like:
- no tempest rush for monk
- no spirit for barb
- barbs are not allowed to use shield
- ban blue bell for monks (or even whole skill)

vs. legacy nat there should be another rulez than vs. new nat dh. Hard to say what kind of, but no traps can solve it a bit. Or even ban all legacy nat set.


vs. wd...

- no pets (Including spiders)
- no hunt (really lame skills vs. every class)
- allowed only one skill: hex or fire bats but not both.
Firebats make me less problems than hunt (meyby only me..?) hunt got high range auto aim and high dmg - bats got short distance. The real problem is with pets - I have to attack or spiders will kill me. sss is useless because of them, so we got only bell. high ehp wd can get 2 crits I think... spirit walk + spirit vessel. Every one know wd is totally lame class.

monk vs. wizz

I cant understand the currently rulez. Really.. there is no need any rulez.


monk vs. monk.
I think no tr rulez could be good and make this game more fun that's all about.

thx and sorry for my miss spelling.

[DarkRaven]

Barb vs wiz

From a barb point of view, wotb without insanity is just a 2 minutes cooldown cc breaker, I'm not even sure if I would use it. It would be rather a defensive skill to use when you are low and get stunned, getting 15 seconds to heal, but I'm not sure I would prefer it to threatening shout.
 Especially because threatening is a constant source of fury and provides ms advantage aswell.
I don't think wotb is needed in this matchup.

Barb vs monk

 I had a lot of nice, strategic, balanced games vs non-tr monks, they have more spirit and can do longer combos, it feels much riskier yet faster and more fun playing vs them. The normal bells plus sss style that monks like tomas have.

I came to a point where I don't even bother playing much vs tr, yeah I run 10 minutes to see how it goes but after that I move to other things... And I'm pretty sure I will never join again a tournament where tempest rush is allowed


@ Forti, yeah you did up your dps, still you can improve a lot, I played many games vs 200k+ dps plus soj monks with even lower aps than u have, and a lot more ehp.

 Your ehp is so low, at least what I see in your dprogress, not only that any crit rend kills you, that's normal, but even non crit rends I bet hurt you a lot... Good monks are only damaged by crit rends and they have serenity to deny those.

I don't think it's a problem of low skill, but you can still improve your gear a lot.

Look for example at Mafia from us, he currently has 215k dps with 1.05 aps ( roughly 35-40% more damage per hit ) while having double your ehp; you are a very long way from that.


Barb vs wd

A lot of talk has been about insane and how he 5-0ed everybody in D3cl without having gear as good as euro or blud had.

Vimer was the only one to win vs him, 5-4 although vimer is better geared as barb than insane was as wd. However, I heard some rumours, dunno if they are entirely true.

It seems it was 4-1 for insane playing standard, after that vimer used the 200k+ dps and ~0.1ehp cheese - barb basically has one big wotb phase where he tries to 1 shot the wd, if he fails he is dead.

It may have worked because he caught the wd by surprise and maybe insane didn't have the knowledge and/or gear to counter that, but I'm pretty sure that if they met another time, after that, the score would have been much different.

I stick to my previous proposition

- The Witch Doctor can choose between the skills Fire Bats or Hex, he can use one bot not both at the same time
- The Witch Doctor can choose between the skills Spirit Walk and Spirit Vessel, he can use one bot not both at the same time ( as vimer suggested )