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Rules & development / Re: Rules proposal for the 3rd season - open discussion
« on: June 22, 2013, 15:45:43 pm »
error had 100+k hp in Bt set, dunno how iria plays, I presume in a similar fashion.
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Rules & development / Re: Rules proposal for the 3rd season - open discussion
« on: June 22, 2013, 12:04:37 pm »
I tested vs error, a top dh in eu, it was pretty brutal. I think I killed him once in more than 10 games. Only way was to get lucky with skorn in wotb.
I could still stalemate with shield vs his build but no way to kill him. ( and that's probably how all barbs will play vs top dhs, full tank stalemate, if there aren't any stalemate rules )
He used stun traps very effectively, I think he placed them under me just when I got stunned, dunno how but he chained 2-3 stuns pretty easily, without ignore pain it was gg. I haven't seen any other dh being able to stun me that much.
He still had enough ehp to survive a crit with skorn in wotb, with prep. And ofc he could have just run easily.
I'm really curious if other top barbs can defeat top dhs like error. My personal feeling is that not only all skills have to be allowed for barb but a slight dh nerf may be needed, rf is such a huge dps boost for dhs.
I could still stalemate with shield vs his build but no way to kill him. ( and that's probably how all barbs will play vs top dhs, full tank stalemate, if there aren't any stalemate rules )
He used stun traps very effectively, I think he placed them under me just when I got stunned, dunno how but he chained 2-3 stuns pretty easily, without ignore pain it was gg. I haven't seen any other dh being able to stun me that much.
He still had enough ehp to survive a crit with skorn in wotb, with prep. And ofc he could have just run easily.
I'm really curious if other top barbs can defeat top dhs like error. My personal feeling is that not only all skills have to be allowed for barb but a slight dh nerf may be needed, rf is such a huge dps boost for dhs.
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Rules & development / Re: Rules proposal for the 3rd season - open discussion
« on: June 16, 2013, 18:08:24 pm »
lol, If u see a big difference from sss vs shield and sss vs skorn, only a small part is because of block, the rest is from the defensive stats of the shield, as I mentioned above.
shield only blocks the amount written on it, like 3700-4700, if a hit does 40k and u block 4k u will take 36k, so 10% reduction, if the hit is 80k than 4k reduced is 5%, if the hit is 8k than u block 50% etc. the smaller the hit, the better block becomes
shield only blocks the amount written on it, like 3700-4700, if a hit does 40k and u block 4k u will take 36k, so 10% reduction, if the hit is 80k than 4k reduced is 5%, if the hit is 8k than u block 50% etc. the smaller the hit, the better block becomes
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Rules & development / Re: Rules proposal for the 3rd season - open discussion
« on: June 16, 2013, 15:52:19 pm »
as baharoth said, when you get hit by 80k per shot, for example, blocking 4k only reduces that damage by 5%. dodge is A LOT better than block, anytime, vs anyone.
A storm shield has ~1000-1200 arm, 70-80ar, 7% vs elites, 6% vs melee which works vs sss and normal bells, maybe 150-200 vit or 16% life
so unless you find a 2 handed weapon with 1000-1200 vit , a 2 handed weapon setup will never be able to have the ehp of spear and shield, but definitely not because of block.
block is best vs fast small hits, vs big slow hits its effect is quite small.
A storm shield has ~1000-1200 arm, 70-80ar, 7% vs elites, 6% vs melee which works vs sss and normal bells, maybe 150-200 vit or 16% life
so unless you find a 2 handed weapon with 1000-1200 vit , a 2 handed weapon setup will never be able to have the ehp of spear and shield, but definitely not because of block.
block is best vs fast small hits, vs big slow hits its effect is quite small.
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Rules & development / Re: Rules proposal for the 3rd season - open discussion
« on: June 15, 2013, 18:50:08 pm »
did anyone notice that 28 out of 60 players in the league already quit the league for various reasons? rule discussion is nice but season 3 may never happen.
even with perfectly balanced rules, rules to separate players in echelons in the beginning and rewards it will still be very hard to get new players or to regain the ones lost.
in the end it will all come to blizzard to try and balance it for future "real" PvP if that would ever happen. although things have gone from bad to worse with last patch.
even with perfectly balanced rules, rules to separate players in echelons in the beginning and rewards it will still be very hard to get new players or to regain the ones lost.
in the end it will all come to blizzard to try and balance it for future "real" PvP if that would ever happen. although things have gone from bad to worse with last patch.
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Rules & development / Re: Rules proposal for the 3rd season - open discussion
« on: June 15, 2013, 17:03:41 pm »
forti, I already told you Russ is using Mnich gear. You can see in diabloprogress.
this game is 80% gear, 20% skill maybe, you would probably have same score if you had that level of gear.
I will try to do some games with no tr no sprint rule vs some good monks. Maybe others can test too.
Personally I think that even just banning tr would make it more fun and fast without favoring barbs, monks have too lots of ways to close distance, like teleport hits, blind etc.
But I presume no monk will agree to this because most d3cl monks are tr monks, maybe they don't know how to play any other way.
this game is 80% gear, 20% skill maybe, you would probably have same score if you had that level of gear.
I will try to do some games with no tr no sprint rule vs some good monks. Maybe others can test too.
Personally I think that even just banning tr would make it more fun and fast without favoring barbs, monks have too lots of ways to close distance, like teleport hits, blind etc.
But I presume no monk will agree to this because most d3cl monks are tr monks, maybe they don't know how to play any other way.
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Rules & development / Re: Rules proposal for the 3rd season - open discussion
« on: June 15, 2013, 12:40:46 pm »
I didn't play vs sin but I played vs Tomas who doesn't use tr either. I had pretty balanced games vs him, I think overall he killed me more but at least the games were faster and certainly more fun than vs tr.
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Rules & development / Re: Rules proposal for the 3rd season - open discussion
« on: June 15, 2013, 12:17:43 pm »
Russ has the gear of mnich currently.
I told you Forti that mnich would probably defeat nofear too with the current rules.
Dunno about the cost of that gear but I think it is pretty rare and expensive. The damage per hit of 166k plus 38vs elites with 0.9 aps is similar, roughly, to about 300k dps with 1.17 aps.
I want to see the results of russ vs vimer to have a clearer idea about the matchup.
I still think it's pretty balanced damage wise, but monks have a too big ms advantage and range advantage. Also barbs stuns are dodgeable, very hard to get consistent stuns.
If a monk plays safe waiting for serenity to deny crit rends it is close to impossible to be killed.
There may be other builds, like going for non crit damage so that even normal rends start hurting them, but I haven't tested yet.
I think the no tr no sprint rule could be better because barbs will have a chance to catch monks, however the overall damage of monks is much higher because of more spirit and longer combos.
Personally I prefer dieing faster than chasing a monk for hours around the map knowing I could never catch them if they play safe.
I don't really know if Russ(mnich) has top gear in eu, or how close they are to top gear, but the damage per hit potential is pretty impressive.
I haven't tested wotb, I think it's pretty useless vs so high ms.
I tested wotb vs barbs and I couldn't get any rends if they just ran 15 sec, it would be impossible to rend a tr monk with wotb.
Vs non tr it would probably be imba but vs tr is pretty much unusable. Plus to use it you have to get rid of threatening shout or charge...
I told you Forti that mnich would probably defeat nofear too with the current rules.
Dunno about the cost of that gear but I think it is pretty rare and expensive. The damage per hit of 166k plus 38vs elites with 0.9 aps is similar, roughly, to about 300k dps with 1.17 aps.
I want to see the results of russ vs vimer to have a clearer idea about the matchup.
I still think it's pretty balanced damage wise, but monks have a too big ms advantage and range advantage. Also barbs stuns are dodgeable, very hard to get consistent stuns.
If a monk plays safe waiting for serenity to deny crit rends it is close to impossible to be killed.
There may be other builds, like going for non crit damage so that even normal rends start hurting them, but I haven't tested yet.
I think the no tr no sprint rule could be better because barbs will have a chance to catch monks, however the overall damage of monks is much higher because of more spirit and longer combos.
Personally I prefer dieing faster than chasing a monk for hours around the map knowing I could never catch them if they play safe.
I don't really know if Russ(mnich) has top gear in eu, or how close they are to top gear, but the damage per hit potential is pretty impressive.
I haven't tested wotb, I think it's pretty useless vs so high ms.
I tested wotb vs barbs and I couldn't get any rends if they just ran 15 sec, it would be impossible to rend a tr monk with wotb.
Vs non tr it would probably be imba but vs tr is pretty much unusable. Plus to use it you have to get rid of threatening shout or charge...
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Rules & development / Re: Rules proposal for the 3rd season - open discussion
« on: June 13, 2013, 12:19:33 pm »
mystical was banned for the duping gold bug. but yeah, I felt he said that because basically legacy dhs can stalemate forever vs barbs.
I know that almost all dhs use rf with thrill and maybe other stuns too. so if you consider that using rf doesn't have disadvantages for legacy why not allow all skills for barb
?
I may be online around that time but I can't promise anything it depends on when my daughter goes to sleep and also today is my ( and my wife 
) marriage 4th year anniversary
I'm usually online a bit in the morning before I go to work and a bit in the evening around 21-23 CET, I'll contact u when I see u online.
I know that almost all dhs use rf with thrill and maybe other stuns too. so if you consider that using rf doesn't have disadvantages for legacy why not allow all skills for barb
? I may be online around that time but I can't promise anything
it depends on when my daughter goes to sleep and also today is my ( and my wife ) marriage 4th year anniversary I'm usually online a bit in the morning before I go to work and a bit in the evening around 21-23 CET, I'll contact u when I see u online.
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Rules & development / Re: Rules proposal for the 3rd season - open discussion
« on: June 13, 2013, 11:55:12 am »
and don't forget that mystical " top skill " legacy dh considered the matchup was perfectly fine with no restrictions even before 1.08.
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Rules & development / Re: Rules proposal for the 3rd season - open discussion
« on: June 13, 2013, 11:44:26 am »
I didn't want the rules to be complicated.
I know that basically a legacy dh will have lower ehp and lower dps. their advantage is mobility given by disc.
I didn't test enough vs a legacy using rf, I presume that it should be a lot easier to rend them compared to impale only dhs.
its not about Bt set, a non legacy dh can reach similar ehp values even without Bt, just like barbs can. the difference is that Bt ehp is based more on mitigation ( rather than hp ) and they have a bit more life reg.
to still keep it simple, maybe impose restrictions vs legacy dhs and allow all skills vs non legacy ( if they use rf ) ?, but I can't really comment on that because I haven't played vs RF legacy DHs too much.
Personally I felt the matchup was pretty fun without rf, while nerfing slightly the ehp of barbs. I think dhs should be encouraged more to return to that style rather than staying still and shooting rf until somebody dies, that's why I wanted to nerf even more barbs ehp vs non rf dhs.
maybe, vs non rf, ban all runes on wc, relentless and nerves, forcing barbs to use unforgiving not a full tank spec and maybe tough as nails which is strictly worse than nerves.
I know that basically a legacy dh will have lower ehp and lower dps. their advantage is mobility given by disc.
I didn't test enough vs a legacy using rf, I presume that it should be a lot easier to rend them compared to impale only dhs.
its not about Bt set, a non legacy dh can reach similar ehp values even without Bt, just like barbs can. the difference is that Bt ehp is based more on mitigation ( rather than hp ) and they have a bit more life reg.
to still keep it simple, maybe impose restrictions vs legacy dhs and allow all skills vs non legacy ( if they use rf ) ?, but I can't really comment on that because I haven't played vs RF legacy DHs too much.
Personally I felt the matchup was pretty fun without rf, while nerfing slightly the ehp of barbs. I think dhs should be encouraged more to return to that style rather than staying still and shooting rf until somebody dies, that's why I wanted to nerf even more barbs ehp vs non rf dhs.
maybe, vs non rf, ban all runes on wc, relentless and nerves, forcing barbs to use unforgiving not a full tank spec and maybe tough as nails which is strictly worse than nerves.
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Rules & development / Re: Rules proposal for the 3rd season - open discussion
« on: June 13, 2013, 10:57:14 am »
I look now at Venxosiz gear in dprogress, 213k dps SoJ with 1mil ehp 89k hp.
I think error had 210k SoJ with 115k hp in full Bt set. He doesn't have that gear currently equipped but it felt harder to kill than many Barbs.
dunno if he had double the ehp Ven currently has but I bet it was pretty close. He didn't even run when I had wotb, if he ran it would have been less than 30% win for me.
@knho, I agree there should be different rules for dhs not using rapid fire, especially legacy dhs, as I wrote earlier
Barb vs Demon Hunter
- If the Demon Hunter is using the skill Rapid Fire, all other skills are allowed
- If the Demon Hunter is not using the skill Rapid Fire, Barbarian is allowed to use the skill WarCry only with "no rune" and the skill Relentless is banned
I think error had 210k SoJ with 115k hp in full Bt set. He doesn't have that gear currently equipped but it felt harder to kill than many Barbs.
dunno if he had double the ehp Ven currently has but I bet it was pretty close. He didn't even run when I had wotb, if he ran it would have been less than 30% win for me.
@knho, I agree there should be different rules for dhs not using rapid fire, especially legacy dhs, as I wrote earlier
Barb vs Demon Hunter
- If the Demon Hunter is using the skill Rapid Fire, all other skills are allowed
- If the Demon Hunter is not using the skill Rapid Fire, Barbarian is allowed to use the skill WarCry only with "no rune" and the skill Relentless is banned
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Rules & development / Re: Rules proposal for the 3rd season - open discussion
« on: June 13, 2013, 10:40:24 am »
the main problem is that there aren't any top level non-legacy dhs in D3cl at this moment.
there are 4-5 barbs here closer to the max potential of their class more than any non-legacy dh.
predsr is a very good legacy but rapid fire doesn't advantage them.
I have played against venxosiz in D3cl and vz uzjel after a public. I don't want to offend them but it wasn't even close compared to dhs like error.
I played vs error in a public game, 115k hp in Bt set and still amazing damage with rf. I couldn't kill him/her? in wotb with spear, I got him maybe 1/3 times with skorn but I needed like 2 crits in those 15 sec because of prep and smoke screen, plus I couldn't just stand in rf 15 sec.
the dps potential of rf makes it so overpowered because it allows them to be A LOT more tanky while still being able to kill. Maybe dhs here gear wrongly towards more dps. vs Ven I killed him with spear and shield without wotb, vs error I couldn't kill with skorn in wotb, while he still had more than enough to kill me.
the same as wd bats, top wds can easily go with high ehp because they think they can still burst a barb down. which actually is stupid cause barbs will only engage in wotb with IP and wds can't ever kill a running barb without both haunt and SB.
I agree that error is probably better geared as dh than I am as barb and didn't test a lot of specs, I'm curious what vimers experience is vs top dhs.
As a sidenote, scorpion joined the public game where I was with error and he really messed up the dh with bats. A top wd with bats seemed to have more dps potential than a skorn wotb barb, and that is pretty funny
there are 4-5 barbs here closer to the max potential of their class more than any non-legacy dh.
predsr is a very good legacy but rapid fire doesn't advantage them.
I have played against venxosiz in D3cl and vz uzjel after a public. I don't want to offend them but it wasn't even close compared to dhs like error.
I played vs error in a public game, 115k hp in Bt set and still amazing damage with rf. I couldn't kill him/her? in wotb with spear, I got him maybe 1/3 times with skorn but I needed like 2 crits in those 15 sec because of prep and smoke screen, plus I couldn't just stand in rf 15 sec.
the dps potential of rf makes it so overpowered because it allows them to be A LOT more tanky while still being able to kill. Maybe dhs here gear wrongly towards more dps. vs Ven I killed him with spear and shield without wotb, vs error I couldn't kill with skorn in wotb, while he still had more than enough to kill me.
the same as wd bats, top wds can easily go with high ehp because they think they can still burst a barb down. which actually is stupid cause barbs will only engage in wotb with IP and wds can't ever kill a running barb without both haunt and SB.
I agree that error is probably better geared as dh than I am as barb and didn't test a lot of specs, I'm curious what vimers experience is vs top dhs.
As a sidenote, scorpion joined the public game where I was with error and he really messed up the dh with bats. A top wd with bats seemed to have more dps potential than a skorn wotb barb, and that is pretty funny
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Rules & development / Re: Rules proposal for the 3rd season - open discussion
« on: June 12, 2013, 13:29:34 pm »
Barb vs wiz
From a barb point of view, wotb without insanity is just a 2 minutes cooldown cc breaker, I'm not even sure if I would use it. It would be rather a defensive skill to use when you are low and get stunned, getting 15 seconds to heal, but I'm not sure I would prefer it to threatening shout.
Especially because threatening is a constant source of fury and provides ms advantage aswell.
I don't think wotb is needed in this matchup.
Barb vs monk
I had a lot of nice, strategic, balanced games vs non-tr monks, they have more spirit and can do longer combos, it feels much riskier yet faster and more fun playing vs them. The normal bells plus sss style that monks like tomas have.
I came to a point where I don't even bother playing much vs tr, yeah I run 10 minutes to see how it goes but after that I move to other things... And I'm pretty sure I will never join again a tournament where tempest rush is allowed
@ Forti, yeah you did up your dps, still you can improve a lot, I played many games vs 200k+ dps plus soj monks with even lower aps than u have, and a lot more ehp.
Your ehp is so low, at least what I see in your dprogress, not only that any crit rend kills you, that's normal, but even non crit rends I bet hurt you a lot... Good monks are only damaged by crit rends and they have serenity to deny those.
I don't think it's a problem of low skill, but you can still improve your gear a lot.
Look for example at Mafia from us, he currently has 215k dps with 1.05 aps ( roughly 35-40% more damage per hit ) while having double your ehp; you are a very long way from that.
Barb vs wd
A lot of talk has been about insane and how he 5-0ed everybody in D3cl without having gear as good as euro or blud had.
Vimer was the only one to win vs him, 5-4 although vimer is better geared as barb than insane was as wd. However, I heard some rumours, dunno if they are entirely true.
It seems it was 4-1 for insane playing standard, after that vimer used the 200k+ dps and ~0.1ehp cheese - barb basically has one big wotb phase where he tries to 1 shot the wd, if he fails he is dead.
It may have worked because he caught the wd by surprise and maybe insane didn't have the knowledge and/or gear to counter that, but I'm pretty sure that if they met another time, after that, the score would have been much different.
I stick to my previous proposition
- The Witch Doctor can choose between the skills Fire Bats or Hex, he can use one bot not both at the same time
- The Witch Doctor can choose between the skills Spirit Walk and Spirit Vessel, he can use one bot not both at the same time ( as vimer suggested )
From a barb point of view, wotb without insanity is just a 2 minutes cooldown cc breaker, I'm not even sure if I would use it. It would be rather a defensive skill to use when you are low and get stunned, getting 15 seconds to heal, but I'm not sure I would prefer it to threatening shout.
Especially because threatening is a constant source of fury and provides ms advantage aswell.
I don't think wotb is needed in this matchup.
Barb vs monk
I had a lot of nice, strategic, balanced games vs non-tr monks, they have more spirit and can do longer combos, it feels much riskier yet faster and more fun playing vs them. The normal bells plus sss style that monks like tomas have.
I came to a point where I don't even bother playing much vs tr, yeah I run 10 minutes to see how it goes but after that I move to other things... And I'm pretty sure I will never join again a tournament where tempest rush is allowed
@ Forti, yeah you did up your dps, still you can improve a lot, I played many games vs 200k+ dps plus soj monks with even lower aps than u have, and a lot more ehp.
Your ehp is so low, at least what I see in your dprogress, not only that any crit rend kills you, that's normal, but even non crit rends I bet hurt you a lot... Good monks are only damaged by crit rends and they have serenity to deny those.
I don't think it's a problem of low skill, but you can still improve your gear a lot.
Look for example at Mafia from us, he currently has 215k dps with 1.05 aps ( roughly 35-40% more damage per hit ) while having double your ehp; you are a very long way from that.
Barb vs wd
A lot of talk has been about insane and how he 5-0ed everybody in D3cl without having gear as good as euro or blud had.
Vimer was the only one to win vs him, 5-4 although vimer is better geared as barb than insane was as wd. However, I heard some rumours, dunno if they are entirely true.
It seems it was 4-1 for insane playing standard, after that vimer used the 200k+ dps and ~0.1ehp cheese - barb basically has one big wotb phase where he tries to 1 shot the wd, if he fails he is dead.
It may have worked because he caught the wd by surprise and maybe insane didn't have the knowledge and/or gear to counter that, but I'm pretty sure that if they met another time, after that, the score would have been much different.
I stick to my previous proposition
- The Witch Doctor can choose between the skills Fire Bats or Hex, he can use one bot not both at the same time
- The Witch Doctor can choose between the skills Spirit Walk and Spirit Vessel, he can use one bot not both at the same time ( as vimer suggested )
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Rules & development / Re: Rules proposal for the 3rd season - open discussion
« on: June 10, 2013, 17:24:29 pm »
you sure love quotes
yeah mokkal's gear is more balanced because he has more experience but I'm sure that balance can be achieved with even more dps.
How exactly did I do a mistake? I just said that vs me stalker had 100k+ hp probably losing a bit of dps. Also stalker does have more ehp, even with those d3up stats, if barb uses rend, like a lot of barbs do.
the matchup is balanced at the current top level, like mokkal, shadow and ximae, but more dps is achievable and at that point it can become one sided for wiz, if they gear correctly vs barb.
I didn't play vs mokkal in D3cl, the 5-0 vs ximae was closer than it looks, after that he defeated nofear.
wotb is allowed in vc tournament, dunno why, but even with wotb it was only 3-2 for nofear in a previous tournament.
I'm not quite sure what are you trying to achieve here. You said you have no PvP gear so you basically didn't do any PvP vs barb in 1.08, you ask the opinion of top wizards, Shadow and Mokkal already told you that the match-up is fine and not vs Barb is the problem of Wiz. (I'm sure Ximae would say the same). What conclusion do you want?
this is already far too much talk about a balanced matchup, barbs are ok with the rule, wiz are ok with it, leave it be.
yeah mokkal's gear is more balanced because he has more experience but I'm sure that balance can be achieved with even more dps.
How exactly did I do a mistake? I just said that vs me stalker had 100k+ hp probably losing a bit of dps. Also stalker does have more ehp, even with those d3up stats, if barb uses rend, like a lot of barbs do.
the matchup is balanced at the current top level, like mokkal, shadow and ximae, but more dps is achievable and at that point it can become one sided for wiz, if they gear correctly vs barb.
I didn't play vs mokkal in D3cl, the 5-0 vs ximae was closer than it looks, after that he defeated nofear.
wotb is allowed in vc tournament, dunno why, but even with wotb it was only 3-2 for nofear in a previous tournament.
I'm not quite sure what are you trying to achieve here. You said you have no PvP gear so you basically didn't do any PvP vs barb in 1.08, you ask the opinion of top wizards, Shadow and Mokkal already told you that the match-up is fine and not vs Barb is the problem of Wiz. (I'm sure Ximae would say the same). What conclusion do you want?
this is already far too much talk about a balanced matchup, barbs are ok with the rule, wiz are ok with it, leave it be.