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[Damx]

manner plays way behind role when it comes to ladders and winning .. its just human nature

[error]

In my opinion rules should be made similar to what we had in most D2 leagues back in the day: Specific rules for all match-ups. I just don't think universal rules alone, e.g. "no life regen" or "ban skill xy", will be sufficient. They could do more harm than good. That's the kind of balancing we can expect from Blizzard (flat 30%/35% reduce *cough*), but we can certainly do better
I'm sure that many knowledgable players would volunteer to test all possible match-ups.

@error
Who would define the first build though? This could lead to players provoking a stalemate if they feel that they can't win in the current setup and that they could gain an advantage by forcing the opponent to use lesser skills. Tanky players could bluff and use weaker skills in the beginning to strip their opponents of their strong skills.

Hi Euronymous,

I like your question about the first built. I think this is the key factor to solve this problem. In D2 we hadn't this problem because classes only had one set of skills. This is why I came up with the standard built in my last scenario post.

Every player must have a defined standard built to avoid forced stalemates. If classes don't have a predefined built/playstyle there are more chances of forced stalemate. The predefined standard built must be the first built used in the encounter so there are many less chances of players trying that bait & switch skills to force stalemates.

Some of you may think: "Ok, but I use different builts vs different classes". This is not true. You may use different builts vs different class-builts because any class can be a glass canon/tank/balanced/sniper/etc...

If we apply plain restrictions to skills, max HP, life regen, armor, etc... we are not only breaking tanks in every class, we may also be making some hybrid class/builts unviable that relied on those capped mechanics. It is not the same having 200k hp, 5k armor, 500 all res and 2k regen than having  150k hp, 10k armor, 1k all res and 4k regen. The first player is extending EHP by stacking vitality and the second is just unkillable.

Some restrictions may be good or not but any character that can run arround for endless time while waiting for its HP to regen or for skills to regen its HP (i.e. Serenity,Preparation,Sacrifice,etc...) and that must not be allowed for the sake of fun. I think the root of the problem is not the regen mechanic itself but the abuse of it. One more example. Imagine no HP regen for anyone, what do you do vs a Storm Armor wizzard that runs arround? Maybe the real problem is running arround.

[error]

manner plays way behind role when it comes to ladders and winning .. its just human nature

Let's change the ladder system then. This solution can't be more simple: Prisoner's dilemma.
Set of rules:
1- Rounds that last more than 5 minutes are draw (like a double KO) +1/+1.
2- Encounters that end in 5/5 (draw encounters) make both opponents lose double quantity of points.
3- Subsequent draw encounters will double the last penalty applied to each opponent (exponential growth for everyone).

Exponential growth penalty is not an excessive penalty because the objective is to get rid of unwanted behaviours that harm the spirit of the competition. It will also get rid of certain builts/playstyles that feel bad to the majority of participants.
Any standard dueler may prefer forcing a stalemate if he truly believes he's not being bad mannered because he will have the opportunity to overcome a bad score of 2-4 or even 8 lost encounters in extreme cases.
Obviously if someone is facing a penalty of 16-32-64 encounters may think twice before forcing a stalemate (unless he's a psyco and wants to get buried in the ladder). Someone in this position must have common acceptance problems because many people in the competition don't like his ways and he is undoubtly bad mannered to the rest of the comunity in any sort of form.

[Mr.Mag]

I'm not quite sure if ELO system supports draws when both players lose points. i'm afraid this is undesirable situation. One thing is certain, something needs to be done with draws.

[kaio]

I'm a wizard player and an old member of euro-pvp.

I'm top 5 wiz pvp dummy in world.
If I play vs similar barb/dh/monk is near a 100% lost.
Played vs Heroman (one of the top barb) simple impossible to win even a round
Played vs SINI (my korean bro  ) Impossible
Played vs Monk using bell build got 50% to win
Played vs top Dh -> Impossible to win

No need to say what happend vs WD.


I think we can't wait blizzard to fix this cose they simple don't care about it even if I think the only thing that make us play d2 for so long was only pvp.

What we have to do if we want to make pvp better is to set some rules asap cose for me now this league got no sense as almost all duells are autolose.

I'm open to test and help all the possible solutions.

kaio#2367

[GREEN2172]

Let's change the ladder system then. This solution can't be more simple: Prisoner's dilemma.
Set of rules:
1- Rounds that last more than 5 minutes are draw (like a double KO) +1/+1.
2- Encounters that end in 5/5 (draw encounters) make both opponents lose double quantity of points.
3- Subsequent draw encounters will double the last penalty applied to each opponent (exponential growth for everyone).

This could be good BUT some players still can abuse system. For example: you are top1 in rank, you play with medium opponent and you can lose ~40 score. If he is DH he can use build to run fast and you will be unable to kill him in 5 minutes. He can specially draw to take your 80 points from your overall score.

And what with normal draws, like 4:4, I will kill enemy and I will die from rend/haunt? It's 5:5 too...

[Mr.Mag]

we'll contact you soon coz we're creating dev team to set up the rules and we have no good wizard on board

[kaio]

we'll contact you soon coz we're creating dev team to set up the rules and we have no good wizard on board

thx a lot!!

Do it before I sell all items and quit d3!   

[Euronymous]

Are stalemates really that big of a problem right now? Wouldn't it be sufficient to just draw with +-0 for the rare occasion and avoid those players in the future? There are more than enough duelers out there to gain points.

Error, the rules you suggested would make dueling less fun for me. I really think what we need most now are match-up rules to even out class imbalances.
I obviously agree with kaio here, wizards need a huge buff by league rules.

Every player must have a defined standard built to avoid forced stalemates. If classes don't have a predefined built/playstyle there are more chances of forced stalemate.

a. Same build to begin all duels. Takes away one of the most interesting features D3 has to offer. I never had a stalemate yet, thanks to the diversity of WDs. If I see a really tanky barb I just pack more offensive skills. A "one-for-all" build would have to be balanced and therefore lack the damage needed to take down some tanks. In this case the rule would force me to force a stalemate.

Set of rules:
1- Rounds that last more than 5 minutes are draw (like a double KO) +1/+1.
2- Encounters that end in 5/5 (draw encounters) make both opponents lose double quantity of points.
3- Subsequent draw encounters will double the last penalty applied to each opponent (exponential growth for everyone).

b. This will give "bad mannered" players another option. Once you are leading, avoid getting killed for 5 minutes and you will win the duel.

[Crensh]

I dont think that enforcing builds will work and very few people would like to play like this. Banning certain skills that are impossible to counter is the way to go.
Now in regards to life regen on tanky builds I think that ideally we should try and create a community that is free of people trying to ruin the fun of pvp. You can ban 3k + regen for instance but people will come up with some other lame ideas for sure. Perhaps you could introduce a fair play statement alongside the Rules that would basically ask people not to use lame tactics or any form of grief. I mean we are a small community and if some individuals will ruin the fun for others they can be simply excluded from the  league at jugde's discretion.

[Mr.Mag]

remember about one important thing. even if we create a fantastic but complicated rules, we have to be able to enforce those rules. i'm sure a lot of cheaters will appear

[Wittster]

I think it's very important that we keep our rules as simple as possible and do our best to NOT limit gearing options unless there's no other way. I really don't think life regen is as big of a problem as some of you make it sound. It's just the high regen rend/sprint barb that's causing issues, oh and maybe the TR Monk and Brooding DH.

Best solution for draws imo as someone posted earlier: if 1st game is a draw after 5mins, players can 'ban'  1 of their opponent's skills. I think this problem is mostly barb-centered and with this rule, their opponent can choose to either ban sprint or rend for example, so their hit&run tactics don't work anymore. Ofcourse they're at a big disadvantage then but this risk just promotes more active play in the 1st game.

I do agree that wd's should probably be nerfed a little and wizards buffed a little, but am unsure what's the best way to do this.

[MoKKaL]

Best solution for draws imo as someone posted earlier: if 1st game is a draw after 5mins, players can 'ban'  1 of their opponent's skills. I think this problem is mostly barb-centered and with this rule, their opponent can choose to either ban sprint or rend for example, so their hit&run tactics don't work anymore. Ofcourse they're at a big disadvantage then but this risk just promotes more active play in the 1st game.

this can be nicely abused aswell
for example if someone just tries to get a draw 1st round and takes away my skill: blizzard, my main dmg is gone - even though i didnt want to get a draw.
But due the fact i cant reach TR Monks and Sprint Barbs (if they want to do so) i have a nearly 0% chance to "avoid" this scenario.

[saesa]

Anything with timer is clueless and heavily abused. History proved it. You play with watch or enjoy dueling?

[error]

Are stalemates really that big of a problem right now? Wouldn't it be sufficient to just draw with +-0 for the rare occasion and avoid those players in the future? There are more than enough duelers out there to gain points.

Error, the rules you suggested would make dueling less fun for me. I really think what we need most now are match-up rules to even out class imbalances.
I obviously agree with kaio here, wizards need a huge buff by league rules.

Every player must have a defined standard built to avoid forced stalemates. If classes don't have a predefined built/playstyle there are more chances of forced stalemate.

a. Same build to begin all duels. Takes away one of the most interesting features D3 has to offer. I never had a stalemate yet, thanks to the diversity of WDs. If I see a really tanky barb I just pack more offensive skills. A "one-for-all" build would have to be balanced and therefore lack the damage needed to take down some tanks. In this case the rule would force me to force a stalemate.

Set of rules:
1- Rounds that last more than 5 minutes are draw (like a double KO) +1/+1.
2- Encounters that end in 5/5 (draw encounters) make both opponents lose double quantity of points.
3- Subsequent draw encounters will double the last penalty applied to each opponent (exponential growth for everyone).

b. This will give "bad mannered" players another option. Once you are leading, avoid getting killed for 5 minutes and you will win the duel.

I bet my underwear rubberband that something different being implemented will be less fun for you. WD excels in 1vs1 in terms of micromanaging, dps, skill mechanics and ehp(via induction). Blizzard did no mechanic balancing at all between classes. Wizzards and WDs are the living prove, both are ranged, based on the same main stat and a very similar resource system. ATM WDs are kings of pvp and Wizzys are the boufon. Sad but true.

Jokes appart, I will try to answer your statements:

A- Other classes simply can't get more DPS to take down tank barbs. The same way other classes can't have enough microing/DPS/EHP/skill mechanics to defeat certaing opponents. It is completely unfair receiving a challenge from a class-built one has no chance to defeat because of those inherent limitations. Then we either can restrict builts/skills against certain classes, limit some mechanics or promote stalemates as an option.
I personally don't like limitations because it will force us to use cookie cutter builts or getting rid -as you said- of most interesting features in the game.

B- I might not explained myself with the right example. The Prisonner's Dilemma is an iterative unregulated approach to achieve common weal. We may want to use stalemate as a not wished solution thus punishing its repeated use. If a player thinks smart because he's manipulating the challenge system clogging the limitation mechanism and just challenging players with builts over he's a clear advantage those classes can "punish" this behaviour by forcing stalemates from the first moment. I think a bad mannered player will be bad mannered from the start because he doesn't identify himself as bad mannered, he thinks he's better/smarter via abbusing ubalanced classes.
If i didn't misunderstand the scenario you stated the "bad mannered" player starts being bad mannered so he can win the first duel. There's also the possibility of the bad mannered using the draw 5 minute timer once he's had advantage. In this case we must implement a new rule that states something like:

- No player can change his built if he's in advantage.

I need you to keep thinking about scenarios with such conflicts and weird cases to find an acceptable solution for everyone.